JTM45 or Vintage Modern need help to decide

[parvulesco]

Another vote for JTM45.

[frank9310]

C&C: Are you talking about the JTM45 Reissue, an original or a Metro? My JTM45 reissue was like a toy compared to my 2466, though I don't use reverb but I do like some delay once in a while with the Carbon Copy or something similar. I'd love to hear a Metro or original to see what the fuss is all about because mine sounded just so-so.

So is this comparison for a JTM45 reissue or some other version vs the VM?

What we need is a JTM45-VM shootout. Anybody have both laying around to record?

[ClubAndCountry]

All JTM45s. I've never played any of these clones or copies, but I have played and worked on both many original 60s JTMs and a few reissues. The reissues don't sound as good as the originals, but they do sound basically 'like' them. The circuit is nearly identical both in overall layout and component values, which is far more important than the type of board, component types, transformers, valves etc. I know that changing the caps can make a fairly big difference (although I think that the ones that seem to be fashionable among boutique builders and modifiers may even be a step in the wrong direction), but it doesn't change the overall 'voice' of the amp - it changes the detail of the tone, not the basic sound. It is still important - when I'm repairing old amps like JTM45s, I only use correct original-type caps and resistors - salvaged from other dead equipment of the right age - in the signal path.

The Vintage Modern however has fairly large differences in layout and component values throughout the amp, and as a result sounds quite different, and would do even if you fitted it with vintage caps and resistors. You may prefer it - and the one I had was certainly a lot more versatile in terms of different sounds, whereas the JTM45 is not really very flexible - but it certainly doesn't sound the same. I now know that it wasn't SteveD's intention that it should - it's his concept of where a modern KT66 Marshall should be going - which is fine, if you like it... as many people clearly do. I have to admit I spent a few days with it and couldn't get even one sound I really loved out of it, whereas I can do so with a JTM45 - even a reissue - in about as long as it takes to turn the switches on :-).

[surfnorthwest]

I'd love to hear a Metro or original to see what the fuss is all about because mine sounded just so-so.

I have a Metro JTM45 100 and it is a total different amp than the 2466, I have many songs where I used that amp and it is sweet.

Here is a youtube demo of it.

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

[frank9310]

C&C: You mentioned it would do to replace the caps and resistors on the VM. Do you mean it might sound similar to an old style JTM45/100 if that was done? Can you tell me what speakers you ran the VM through? I've been running it into an open back cab with vintage 30s and I can't get a bad sound out of it in low or high ranges, pedals or not, where the JTM45 RI I could never quite seem to get enough muscle out of solos which is the first thing my amp tech also said when he tested it because I thought there must be something wrong with it but there wasn't. He said this amp doesn't have any balls! I tried overdrives, treble boosters, fat boosts, etc. but it was just thin on solos. Even George at Metro acknowledged that this is due to the plate voltage only being 390v and advised me to try one of his upgrade output transformers and to replace the signal caps with Sozo mustard caps which I did and the Sozos made it sound much darker. So I changed them out for Sprague orange drops and that was a definite improvment but still no balls. I live for early Jimi tones but this just was not it. Jimi used a JTM45/100 and I'm hearing sounds reminiscent of those with the VM but more poslished in other ways. To my ears the JTM45 was like the choo choo that couldn't. I'd love to try a JH100 or Metro JTM45/100 though.

[ClubAndCountry]

The plate voltage has nothing to do with it. The simple proof of this is the mid-1970s JMP 50s, which have even lower plate voltage at around 370V - but they sound massive, full and dynamic. (As well as putting out almost as much power as a 2466.) In fact, the guitarist in my band has two, one with the low plate voltage and one with the higher voltage of around 440V they switched to right at the end of the 70s, and the two amps sound extremely similar. Even the 100W JMP 1959s and 2203s only have about 480V, and they really do make any of the new amps 'sound like toys' - no modern Marshall even comes close to the sheer power and presence of these amps. (In my opinion! But you can also measure the output power...)

The caps and resistors make a difference to the tone, but replacing them (even with vintage carbon-comps and 'mustard' caps) won't make a Vintage Modern sound like an old amp - the circuit is too different. All the amps from the original JTM45 through the JMP and even the non-MV JCM800s have the same basic circuit, a majority of the same component values, and recognisably the same basic sound (although by the JCM800s it's stretching it, I admit - but by then the circuit was finally getting quite different, especially in the power supply). Obviously there are large differences in dynamics due to the JTM45 having a valve rectifier and the filtering progressively increasing through the later amps, and in output power, but I certainly wouldn't describe any of them as thin or lacking balls... but that's exactly what I thought the Vintage Modern was - it just didn't seem to have that bright but rich complex warmth of the old amps, or the same sort of punch.

The one I tried was a 2266 combo by the way - both through its own speakers, and my old 1970 Marshall 4x10" cab with Celestion 7442s - one of the best cabs I've ever heard, and my reference cab for all amps I have in my workshop, so I know the difference is the amp not the speakers. I'm pretty sure the amp was working right too - it did initially come in for a repair, but I've heard a couple of others briefly that sounded the same. (And from what I can tell from various online clips, although that often isn't much.)

I do know that some of us 'hear things differently' - or probably more accurately, listen for different things within the sound - but to me, the Vintage Modern just didn't have the Marshall sound I was expecting, which is present even in the JMP Master Volume amps, and I found it quite frustrating trying to dial it in - it's certainly more versatile, but I just could not make it sound how I wanted. I do now realise that what SteveD has done is simply different from what I was expecting, and it's probably a great amp for some people... just not me.

The funny thing is that talking about this has made me think I should take my own advice and stop bothering with any kind of modern amp, and just go right back to where I started... a JMP 50 and some pedals. Maybe I'm just getting old :-).

[frank9310]

Man what I wouldn't do to be able to play a '67 Black Flag JTM45/100 or a '68-'69 Plexi or a '76 Master Volume JMP. I have tried a 76 JMP 50 fawn colored combo but it had 6550s in it and sounded great but too much early breakup and not enough headroom.

The reason I asked about the cab thing was I didn't care for how my 2466 sounded with the cab being closed but once I opened it up, it sounded like a whole different animal. You mentioned you tried the 2266 which has a different plate voltage than the 2466 that I have (the 2266 has a plate HT 430 to 440VDC on a 2466 it should be around 525 to 535VDC) per a previous post from SteveD.

I would think the plate voltage would affect the tone somewhat between what you're hearing and what I'm hearing because I have heard some say they didn't care for the 50 watt ones but liked the 2466s. In fact, Paul Gilbert told me he originally liked the 2266's but for touring he switched to the 2466 because the former had some issues dealing with the rigiors of the road but he didn't go into detail. Also, maybe the voltage differences between U.S. and UK have something to do with it?

This is also interesting to me in what you're saying in general because Robin Trower, who's considered by many (including myself) to be one of the preminent tone gurus of rockdom proclaimed that this was the best sounding amp that Marshall has released in the past 30 years. He did most of the U.S tour using a combination of 2266 and 2466 heads in stereo with closed back and open back cabs depending on venue. He since made it a point to mention in several interviews that the VM is a great sounding amp and that's what he's been using lately.

Why this is inetresting is that Trower recently had his own RT 100 signature amp made by UK's Denis Cornell (Clapton Cream reunion amp fame) and used 2 of them in stereo to record his latest "What Lies Beneath" CD as well as toured with Jack Bruce using his new signature amps (It is an beautiful sounding amp and I hope to get one someday). He then shelved both his brand new signature amps that he worked on developing for a very long time and his main early JCM 800 and prized #1 JMP '76 that he's used extensivley to record his past several records and has used the same amps to tour the U.S. with the for the past 25+ years in favor of the Vintage Modern.

Why he did so, I don't have a clue but as finicky as he is about his live sound, sometimes to the point of cancelling shows because the venue wouldn't allow him to crank his Marshall's up as loud as he felt necessary to achieve the sound he was after, he may very well have noticed a difference in tone when he brought the Cornell heads with him to the U.S. and how the VM sounds with US voltages is all I can guess. As for me, I like using the VM either by itself or in stereo with a brighter voiced Plexi style amp, but the rich, warm sounds the VM gets is just incredible and many times I just prefer to run it by itself.

I did have both the JTM45 RI and a 1986 JCM 800 50 watt combo that I had beefed up with KT88s and a Vintage 30 speaker. To me, the 800 had a good crunchy rock sound and great singing lead tones but it couldn't do warm, sweet cleans very well like the JTM45 could and you couldn't get any of that Marshall roaring low end sag like the 45 had. So to me the VM fills the gap of where the 45 didn't have singing lead balls or punch (at least my RI didn't) and the VM has both warm, sweet cleans on low range or snarling 800 type crunch on high range and it all really comes to life when the master is set at 8. I also find it accepts fuzz and overdrive pedals better than either the 45 or 800. Also, for me, the trick with getting the most tone all around from this amp is having the cab open back with Celestion Vintage 30 speakers.

And I do know the feeling about getting old, having been into Jimi while he was still alive is proof enough! ;-)))

[LivewireBlanco]

I had a VM and a JTM45.... Now I just have a JTM45....

[frank9310]

I had a VM and a JTM45.... Now I just have a JTM45....

Poor guy...

Actually, mine didn't sound too bad with humbucker pickups but funny you never see any Metro demos using a Strat.

[LivewireBlanco]

I had a VM and a JTM45.... Now I just have a JTM45....

Poor guy...

Actually, mine didn't sound too bad with humbucker pickups but funny you never see any Metro demos using a Strat.

Nothing poor about it. JTM just sounded that much better. The VM just sounded thin when compared to the Metro. I did however decide to keep the G12C speakers, those things rock!

[slowpokerhino]

funny you never see any Metro demos using a Strat.

Actually, that's not true. Check YouTube, there are quite a few of them.

[surfnorthwest]

Man what I wouldn't do to be able to play a '67 Black Flag JTM45/100 or a '68-'69 Plexi

You and I think the same with regards to amps. I have a Metro JTM45/100 and a Metro '70 Plexi Superlead. The '70 superlead I have is my pride and joy and the best sounding amp of the five I have but it is not for everything and really difficult to record. The amp is dangorus, loud as hell, and the bad ass...not for bedroom players or weekend warriors. Truth is I only play it when I have the animals outside and nobody else is home :nope , no master volume on this one, just pure rip your face off tone.


Here is the '70 Plexi






Here is the JTM45/100

[slowpokerhino]

I would give up my VM for a Metro.

[frank9310]

You and I think the same with regards to amps. I have a Metro JTM45/100 and a Metro '70 Plexi Superlead. The '70 superlead I have is my pride and joy and the best sounding amp of the five I have but it is not for everything and really difficult to record. The amp is dangorus, loud as hell, and the bad ass...not for bedroom players or weekend warriors. Truth is I only play it when I have the animals outside and nobody else is home :nope , no master volume on this one, just pure rip your face off tone.

Now THOSE are a couple amps! Any clips using a Strat on them? Did you build those yourself and is the JTM45/100 noisy with the output transformer being up next to the Power Transformer? Also, can you play the 45/100 at lower levles and still get good tones?

slowpokerhino » I'm sure there's plenty of Metro owners out there who'd be glad to trade you for your VM as none of us are ever really happy with our tone for long no matter what amp(s) we have at the moment. We're always in search of the ultimate tone but that's impossible to find because every room you play in is different, different wall voltages, acoustics, etc. like "capturing lightning in a bottle!"

Still, it's a lot of fun to b.s. abaut it, eh?!

[ClubAndCountry]

Having restored an original 'black flag' JTM50 a couple of years ago, and worked on many '68-'69 Plexis, both 50s and 100s, I agree with you! And also that a '76 2203 is one of the greatest - and most under-rated - amps ever made. The last one I worked on is a serious candidate for the best-sounding Marshall I've ever had on my bench - and that includes all the Plexis. For some reason its MV worked better down to lower volume than any other 2203 I've ever worked on as well - you could really run it at just a few watts and it still sounded amazing.

When you're comparing a 2266 to a 2466 it isn't just the plate voltage that's different - the transformers are bigger on the 2466, and there are four valves - these things make far more difference than the plate voltage, which by itself is not that important. (It's nothing to do with the line voltage either - there's no difference on the 'amp' side of the power transformer, it's only the primary winding which is different.) I totally agree that the four-valve 100W amps are much bigger-sounding than the two-valve 50s - even at 75W, the 2466 will still have more of a 'big amp' tone than a 50W JMP or JCM800, which can reach not far off the same power output and might even be perceptively louder due to being more aggressively voiced.

I also agree about the Super Lead being 'dangerous' - it's one of the few amps I've ever played that I actually feel intimidated by, when it's turned up loud... it's so explosively loud and aggressive that you prepare for the assault on your eardrums before you hit the strings, and it's very difficult not to hold back a little :-). Even a Hiwatt 400 (the most powerful valve amp I've ever worked on) isn't quite like that - it's louder overall in terms of air movement, but doesn't have the sheer attack that the Marshall does.

For me (and it is just my opinion) the Vintage Modern just didn't have the same character as any of these amps - it was certainly 'singing', and 'smooth', but to me that's not what the classic Marshall tone is about - it's that raw, ringing "kerang" (what a brilliantly descriptive word that is...) that's both rich but also edgy, warm but also biting, full but also *hard* (in the right way), that to me all these old amps have but the VM doesn't. The old ones are dirty, not sweet :-). The VM sounded too controlled and thin to me - not in the sense of not having enough bass response, which it had plenty, possibly too much (in my opinion - which the old amps don't, in fact I always run them with the bass up full, which I couldn't with the VM without it becoming woofy) but of not having enough harmonic complexity to the notes. Too much tone and not enough attitude :-).