Class 5 Input Impedance and other Mods

Marshall Class 5

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Class 5 Input Impedance and other Mods

Postby 6B4G » 08 Jun 2011, 06:38

I have been looking at a number of mods that people have done to their Class 5, some of the things they complain about I agree with, and some I don't. It seems some are trying to make their Class 5 a Plexi, which I understand Marshall were not directly trying to emulate, and some just want to change the overall tone to more of what they want. I fall into this latter group of users, I don't want a Plexi, good as they are.

I like my Class 5, but with Humbuckers and even P90's I find it lacks trebble and can be a bit muddy at low volume, less than 3.5 on the volume Pot. If you crank the Class 5, this is less of an issue, but I don't really want to crank mine, I love it when it just reaches the breakup point, and it's not too loud.

The problem for me is that the topend is just not enough at these volume settings, it is further complicated by turning down the guitar volume which then really reduces the trebble and really kills off the clean tones of a Start or Tele, even my PRS Custom 22 when in Single coil mode suffers.

Elsewhere people have complained about the same problems, I have changed the Input impedance on mine which really helps solve some of these issues, along with a couple of minor mods elsewhere. Most of the mods came from the Les Paul Forum, there was a post which was to be fair, rather unkind to the Class 5 as it's not as bad as they made out; it really does depend on what you want from it and your Guitar, Marshall have tried to make this amp for all players, Plexi and new more modern players, in doing so, they must of course make some compromises, so it suits some and not others.

Heres my mods based on a combination of different posts - I'm not trying to turn mine into a Plexi or anything else, it's already a good amp, but I just felt it lacks something at lower volumes. If you have a high output guitar, or crank the amp, these may not be for you.

Change the Input Impedance to 1Megohm - by changing R20 to 1M Ohm, remove C10 (Steve from Marshall has commented on removing this capacitor, but to me it did make a difference on single coils).

Change R18 to 1.8K and change C8 to 4.7uF (you may wish to go lower possibly to 1uF, might be worth experimenting).

From other posts there are some more radical changes to the Tone stack that I have not yet tried as I feel this amp does not need too much tweaking, but I may decide to try these in the future, I'll post something if I do end up doing them and they have a good effect or not.

One last comment on the top end, with my Class 5 in original condition, through the internall 10" the sound at lower volumes is quite muddy and gives rise to many of my comments above, through my Marshall 4x12AV with the GT75 whatever Vintage speakers (don't remember the exact details), it is much, much better and needs almost no changes, but I don't want to carry about the 4x12, the little combo is just the perfect size, so tweaking is the way to go, but I do wonder if the standard speaker is a little dark and muddy at low volumes, maybe I'll try a different one if any one has any suggestions, remember, when the thing is cranked, it's fine, but I don't crank mine like some.

All tone and settings are subjective and I respect each and everones opinion, these are just what I have found and done to mine which I think improves it, you may or maynot agree.

Good luck if you try these mods, but remember to ensure it is fully discharged before attempting such changes as there are dangerous voltages present within the amp.

Cheers all :beerme

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Re: Class 5 Input Impedance and other Mods

Postby SteveD » 08 Jun 2011, 07:40

That's fair enough. As I always say, everyone has the right to personalise their own amps to their own taste, (as long as they're willing to forego their warranty of course), and you did say it was your own opinion and subjective. No doubt some players will prefer it, some won't.

Wouldn't it have been easier to simply put a bright cap on the volume if you wanted more treble at lower volumes. You can get more treble by putting a cap in parallel with R22 and/or R14 as well.
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Re: Class 5 Input Impedance and other Mods

Postby 6B4G » 08 Jun 2011, 07:59

Hi Steve - thanks for your comments, any suggestions for Cap values to start with for those locations? I was trying to keep the modifications I was doing to a minimum as the amp to be fair is not far off what I wanted. As the volume goes up it's much less of a problem, it's mainly at lower volumes which is the majority of my usage that it gets a bit muddy; plus I do think the Guitar loading on at least the classic guitars (Strats, Tele's etc ) is a little low, I'm sure for higher output it's fine and the design was the best for as wide a range as possible, so no critisism of Marshall or the design is intended.

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Re: Class 5 Input Impedance and other Mods

Postby DSL100 Dude » 08 Jun 2011, 08:07

Just a thought since you mentioned the 4x12 sounded better for you. The stock speaker breaks in really well but I will admit I am in the "dime that puppy" class. Speaker swaps can also produce some different results.
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Re: Class 5 Input Impedance and other Mods

Postby DODmad27 » 08 Jun 2011, 13:45

6B4G, I definitely agree because I too play at lower volumes since I live in an apt. As for values, Steve correct me if I'm wrong but, putting a cap in parallel with those resistors would form a High Pass filter and given the value of the resistor, I would think you would want to start at 1nF and continue to go smaller until you get the desired effect you're going for.
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Re: Class 5 Input Impedance and other Mods

Postby SteveD » 08 Jun 2011, 16:33

It's very subjective of course but a 470pF in parallel with 470k is very traditional in Marshall amps so that might be a better place to start then go up or down from there.

As for a bright cap across the volume pot it really is a question of experimenting with values from 100pF to maybe 4.7nF.
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Re: Class 5 Input Impedance and other Mods

Postby Orpheus777 » 08 Jun 2011, 20:03

Looks like we came to many of the same conclusions... I detail these same changes (point-to-point style) in my previous post (Mod 5)... for nearly the same reasons it sounds... I love this Amp too and I aim to preserve it's Mojo with every MOD I do... My goal is the C5 on steroids, echos of a custom hot Plexi. But this amp certainly has it's own thang... It somehow reminds you of so many classic Marshall tones while being its' own unique thing. I've said it before, I think it is the best product Marshall has offered for years... I have two and will buy the Head as well. (keep one as original/reference).

As far as that speaker... the stock speaker rocks!! It shines even with other amps and I hope Celestion eventually makes them available. I tried many speaker combinations with this amp and speaker configurations and there is no doubt in my mind that the best tones are to be had from multiple speaker set ups. But when being used with just a single speaker, I could find no other 10" or 12" speaker that sounded better (my opinion). I mean it wasn't even close to my ears. If you find another speaker you think works better please let me know!... there are plenty good speakers out there I didn't test, But I did put this speaker up against some of the "best" speakers out there. It is the perfect speaker for this amp... Marshall/Celestion nailed this one.

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Re: Class 5 Input Impedance and other Mods

Postby 6B4G » 10 Jun 2011, 03:54

Hi All, I can now report that I have completed the modifications as described in this thread and the results to my ears are fantastic, for my Les Paul with P90's I can now turn down the volumes and control the amp this way, without it going seriously muddy at any volume, even the Tone Controls can now be used, I was finding that with P90's if I turned down the volume at all prior to this modification the Tone Controls had to be at max or the amp was far too dark and muddy. I am now really, really pleased with the amp. Clearly these won't suit all, but if you agree with my comments at the start of the thread, the effort is well worth while for you. Strats, Teles and even normal Les Pauls have a much wider range now, not had time to try out the PRS, but I have no doubt it will be brilliant now.

Here are the values and changes I carried out in their final form:-

Change R20 to 1Meg
Change R18 to 1.8K
Change C8 to 4.7uf 100v
Remove C10
Add 120pf 400v across the volume pot
Add 470pf 400v across R22

Steve did indicate that you could also put a 470pf across R14 if needed, I did not do this as the amp sounded just how I wanted it to without this addition. The amp still sounds very Marshall and very, very nice.

A big thanks to Steve and others who commented on this change.

Cheers to all.

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Re: Class 5 Input Impedance and other Mods

Postby Damian9645 » 18 Nov 2011, 23:48

Hi, I am working in Saudi Arabia and live in a single men's camp.
Hi volume is not really an option for me. I bought this Class 5 mainly because it was the only valve amp I could find with a headphone jack. I agreed that with my Strat, it got muddy at low volume. When I used the guitar volume I had too much treble roll off too. I did 6B4G's mods that he started this thread off with.

"Change R20 to 1Meg
Change R18 to 1.8K
Change C8 to 4.7uf 100v
Remove C10
Add 120pf 400v across the volume pot
Add 470pf 400v across R22"

It has changed the amp conciderably. Mainly for the better in my ears.
But ..... when I use a clean setting on the Bridge/middle or Bridge pickup, with the new found headroom, I get this high pitched ring that seems to resonate with the "A" on my "G" string. (many octaves higher though)

I have swapped/changed valves to to no effect. It is not a microphonic preamp valve, (it does sound kind of like that thought).

Should I work backwards removing the components one at a time to see if it goes away or does anybody have a suggestion on where to go with this.

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Re: Class 5 Input Impedance and other Mods

Postby 6B4G » 21 Nov 2011, 04:47

I have no similar problems with my amp, I can only suggest the obvious of checking you have the correct components installed, with the C8 the correct way round, the others are not polarised. Check that you have the other two capacitors in the correct circuit positions, they are also easy to remove as a test, in my mods I just soldered them to links on the PCB on the component side or across existing resistors.

From what you describe it does sound more like a tube problem than a component you have installed wrongly. I can confirm if done correctly, I have experienced no adverse problems with these mods, the amp sounds great, especially with Strats and teles at low volumes. Works great at high volumes but I don't push mine that often.

Best of luck finding your problem. Make sure you check the DC has drained before going into the amp as the caps have no drain resistor fitted and can take a while to drop down to a safe level.

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Re: Class 5 Input Impedance and other Mods

Postby Damian9645 » 22 Nov 2011, 04:03

Thanks for the reply.
I rechecked what I did and there were no parts in the wrong place.
I even replaced the cap I removed too and it made very little difference so I removed it again.

Anyway, On the up side, I found the cause of the ringing.

Consider that because I live in a camp, (small rooms) I tend to stand right in front of the amp, no more than 4 or 5 feet from the speaker with the amp on a table at waist height.

The only guitar I have here is an old Strat with a single ply pick guard.

I tried a friends new American Standard with a 3 ply pick guard and it didn't make the ringing sound.

I plugged my guitar back in and played the same notes but held my fingers on the pick guard and ..... THE RINGING STOPPED.

It is not the amp, it's my fuggen guitar! The noise was probably always there but with the new found top end response, it stands out more.

I put a lump of Blu Tac on the inside of the pick guard, between the middle and bridge pickup and all is well. (Should we post that fix on an Fender Forum somewhere?)

Thanks again for your help, your mod is a good one.
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Re: Class 5 Input Impedance and other Mods

Postby BadBluesPlayer » 26 Nov 2011, 14:31

I just did the mods that 6b4g mentioned and they worked really well with the strat. The tone controls work well in the 12:00 range and the amp sounds better. I haven't checked the humbucker guitars yet, but they sounded fine anyway.

Overdrive pedal sounds great with the Strat, too.

:Cheers

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Re: Class 5 Input Impedance and other Mods

Postby 6B4G » 07 Dec 2011, 16:42

If you have a guitar with P90's the amp is awesome after this mod is done too. I love the mods with most Fenders, P90's and any Guitar that has non humbucker pickups. With Humbuckers i.e Les Paul's the changes are more subtle, but still worth doing, especially if you use the Guitar's volume control to colour your sound, and if you don't, why don't you? Ha ha

Glad you liked the mods, not mine, a combination of research from the web and help from Steve, but I think these are really worth doing if you do nothing else to the Class 5, do these.

Cheers :beerme

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Re: Class 5 Input Impedance and other Mods

Postby BadBluesPlayer » 22 Dec 2011, 08:21

BadBluesPlayer wrote:I just did the mods that 6b4g mentioned and they worked really well with the strat. The tone controls work well in the 12:00 range and the amp sounds better. I haven't checked the humbucker guitars yet, but they sounded fine anyway.

Overdrive pedal sounds great with the Strat, too.

:Cheers
i just installed a switch for the 120 pf bright cap across the volume knob. It's just what the doctor ordered. The strat seems to like the bright switch off, and the ES-339 likes it either way. Now it has just the amount of flexibility in the treble that I was looking for.

:beerme

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Re: Class 5 Input Impedance and other Mods

Postby Papus » 22 Dec 2011, 18:08

Maybe you ought to try a treble bleed cap on your guitar's volume knob if you use that as a primary means of controlling volume
Dime that puppy!!!

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