Another solution for the fizzy fizz

[ticle]

Hello everybody!
I'm a newcomer to the forum and I'm and proud owner of an MA since oct/10 and have always struggled to tame the high end fizz that is so discussed around!

Besides the OD in the loop trick, I have another suggestion to get rid of the fizz from the amp, specially in low volumes.

I have a POD HD500 and use it for fx only. No amp models. The ideal situation is to set it for STUDIO/DIRECT mode, which is the most transparent for the fx. The POD thinks it's connected to an FRFR system and no filters are applied to the sound.

The way I have it set is COMBO/FRONT and this gives you a sort of global eq and a filter for the output section of the pod. This way most of the fizz is filtered and I can even set the focus of the midrange frquency! Oh! Chorus, flanger, phaser and delay galore as well!

I also have the Hardwire cm-2 whch is also a TS style pedal, nut it has highs and lows. Awesome for the OD in the loop trick with a little bit more control.

For the record, I also have th MXR 10 band and altough it is one bad ass piece of gear, I couldn't get the fizz removed with it.

Well just wondering if anybody who has the pod hd here has ever done the same.

Cheers!

[Crunchifyable]

Interesting. I don't have a pod, but I get the concept.

I read somewhere about guys using shelving eqs to take off the harsh high end from solid state. it would provide a subtle cut past certain frequencies, eventually cutting off at a certain frequency "shelf." I wonder if this is the same sort of subtle, gradual effect that the ODs and stuff is having on the sound.

I don't really have a fizz issue, but I tend to use the MA at moderate volumes. I definitely agree that something is lacking on the OD at most volumes and it is sort of fuzzy or maybe fizzy. I don't even know what frequency is the issue, I just know it isn't as bright or as articulate as I would like. Granted I'm trying to make this amp sound less "modern," and for me, that probably means having to eventually stick with my 7 band eq before the preamp.
............................. _
I sort of wonder if a / \ shaped eq would have the same effect as some of these tricks. My thought was that cutting the lowest bass freqs and highest treble ones would simulate a power amp and speaker that is being pushed harder. My guess is that at lower volumes, some of the mid frequencies haven't fully bloomed. The fizzyness is worst on guitars with flat sounding pickups - on my guitar that has Duncan 59s, the fizzyness isn't really there, probably because the pickups have a lot of bite - the bridge esp is bright, and nasal in the upper mids, and kind of has a cut to the bass relative to some pickups - in essence - it's an eq before the preamp.

My guess is it comes down to subtle equalization, either before or after the preamp stage. Steve or someone suggested presence on 3 and resonance on full for low volume use, and that actually helped me get a better sound at low volumes.

What I might also eventually do is use a heavy clean boost on the clean channel (which has no fizzy issue and is brighter) and use a pedal or an eq in the fx loop to lower the volume by 12+ db when the boost is on. A little cumbersome maybe. That, or its time for a new amp ;)

Granted I haven't really been able to confirm for my ears how the OD in the loop trick sounds since I don't have a SD-1. Would be cool to hear an A-B test of it.

[ArtyPaul]

I've tried a few of the different suggestions for taming the fizz, including:

*an MXR GT-OD pedal in the FX loop - didn't like the result at all - seemed very muffled to me
*EQ pedal in the loop - more to my taste, but still didn't completely get rid of the fizz

Then I changed the speaker in my 1x12 cab to an Eminence Red Coat Governor, and my sound improved drastically. No more fizz, and much more defined reverb. I have also since put a Harma Cryo 12AX7S in V1, and that has improved the crispness of my overdriven sounds still further. I now use the GT-OD on quite a low setting in front of the amp for a touch of extra chunk at lower volumes, and currently I'm not using the EQ at all. Those latter two made very minor improvements compared to the speaker change though.

(NB - my original speaker was whatever comes stock in the Marshall 1x12 cab - a Celestion, but I can't remember the number off the top of my head).

Paul.

[jagermike66]

+1 for the speaker change. The stock MA speakers are based on celestion GT75s which are already very bright. Changing to a "woolier" speaker will make a massive difference. For those with heads, try out greenbacks and V30s. Both sound great with an MA, and much better than the stock speakers IMO

[Crunchifyable]

Jagermike, I know you said woolier to mean more low end maybe, but I wonder if the change to V30 or Greenbacks is mostly a change of an enhanced (boosted) midrange. My duncan 59b seems to have a harsh upper midrange boost, that reduces the fizz slightly. I thought the T-75s and their copies were supposed to be slightly boosted bass, mid cut, and slightly tapered treble vs Greenbacks (which have a mid/upper peak).

My theory is that you guys are boosting the midrange/bass with the pedal (a tone suck that sucks out the bad tone, like a leech :D), and cutting the volume pot out of the curcuit to get rid of the high end fizz, as I will explain :) The stock MA does sound better with ear plugs / muffs - similar muffling effect ;) .

Okay...long post ahead...But I thought my experiments could help others too

Anyway, I got a new amp, and after letting the MA50H (2009 model) sit mostly for a month, I'm pondering a way to fix the fizz on my MA. And also a way to even out the tonal differences between the boosted / non-boosted OD.

Right now I've got a JJ tube in V2 (the tube that sits sunken in, in the middle) and the other preamp tubes stock (chinese). In this configuration, the boosted channel has less fizz problem (relatively), but the OD channel is dark/ muddy and sort of weak, distorts unevenly, hard to describe (doesn't sound very good on low-mid gain settings). When I swap back in the Chinese tube into V2, the OD channel sounds better, brighter, like a Marshall should on low gain settings, only fizzier, and but I lose the solid metal sound I was sort of getting out of the boosted channel. The boosted channel just becomes harsh and fizzy with the stock tubes - almost unusable. (I bought it b/c I thought it had thelow gain ac/dc / Led Zep crunch. But I may have another amp that does that, or at least the Brown Sound, much better)

Today, I tried using a eq with all the sliders set to -15db varying amp volumes, and it didnt help much at all, mostly because I couldn't get enough attenuation with a flat EQ and not sure whats happening with everything at -15. But then I tried my digitech multi fx, used only as a volume control in the loop, and it went from fizzy to ballsy at bedroom level volume, really any volume I set it to in the 10 mins or so I had to test it. Was mostly testing it at 10 on the channel volume with various eq settings. Couldn't really get a bad sound out of it no matter what I did with the eq / master knobs (recorded A vs Bs too, not haven't listened to the quality of the recording yet).

Some of you have said you like the volume knob set to noon on the amp (didnt have a chance to try it). For me, 9 or 10 on channel volume + fx vol cut sounded night and day better than 1-3 volume + no attenuation in the loop.

Is this because of the bright cap?

(A web site)....The "bright cap"....acts as a high-pass filter to add a brightness to the signal. A high-pass filter allows higher frequencies to pass while attenuating frequencies below a cutoff frequency, thereby emphasizing the higher frequencies. The higher the value of the capacitor, the higher the cutoff frequency and the "brighter" the signal will be. ... As the volume is turned up the bright cap has less of an effect, and when it is all the way up it is shorted and has no effect at all.

I used to think Marshalls sounded better at higher volumes because they were just louder / crunching. But maybe a lot of it is just the bright cap or volume pot getting out of the way, so to speak. Sort of wonder if anyone has removed or modded the bright cap on an MA (if it has one).

I'd say using the digitech as a volume pedal fixed the issue by 75%. There's still a little fizz. Maybe I'll put the stock tube back in it tomorrow and see if it's bearable now, and if the channels mesh up better now.

Basically I'm aiming for a Jimmy Page tone (Marshall or Live tone) /Iron Maiden on the OD channel, and Metallica (pre-black album) / old metal on the boost. I know these sounds are possible from this amp - the trouble is getting them easily available with a switch without having to play with eq knobs (maybe just adjusting gain, or just a switch. Mids arent an issue as much as high end/low end texture) and without having to have the SPLs too loud.

Any opinions or advice? Kind of hoping I can improve the tone of it and get useful sounds out of both the OD and OD-Boost, for under $50. Maybe 2 JJ tubes? or something different in both V1 and V2 (I am assuming V3 makes next to no difference in the OD. characteristics). Or maybe an OD pedal (which is the best value? Sd-1, Bad Monkey, etc. Wouldn't mind if it was also capable of sending a clean channel into bluesy OD or just going from crunch to metal).

Speaker changes are out of my budget right now / too risky.

Going to try putting the JJ in V1 and a Chinese in V2 and see how that works tomorrow.

[jagermike66]

Sounds to me like a transparent clean boost pedal or a passive attenuator would be better than an OD pedal in the loop for this. I just had a look at a passive attenuator kit in another thread, looks tempting.

My initial thought to your reply about the bright cap was "what the hell is the point of putting in a bright cap then apart from making it sound thin at low volumes....", though when i thought about it my MA has a very strict 'sweet spot' on the volume pot where it sounds just right, not too muddy, not too bright. I guess the MA has quite a harsh bright cap so that this sweet spot is achieved at gig volume and no less! Plus, when compared to other amps playing the hi gain stuff I play, the MA remains nice and tight at gig volume with a nice bit of power tube breakup too, whereas the others got quite muffled at high volumes.

For your 50 bucks, I would get either a digitech bad monkey, or a danelectro transparent OD pedal. Both are dirt cheap and are fantastic. Very tubescreamerish. With the tubes I would leave the JJ in V2 and maybe get a nice balanced tube for V1 or V3. I recently put a sovtek 12ax7lps in my MAs V3 and its fantastic at higher volumes. Stops the top end and upper mids becoming too crispy. I've heard this tube works great in V1 too.

[Crunchifyable]

Thanks for the thoughts, Jaegermike, on tubes and pedals. The bad monkey has great reviews, I just wonder if the pedal has enough clean headroom with the gain set to 0 to stay clean in the fx loop. Weird thing is the bad monkey now $10 more than the SD-1, but I am trying to find something good for all around use, in the event I don't need to use it as a vol control.

I kinda feel the same way about the bright cap, as if its redundant on amps with presence / resonance controls. Granted it's a small part of the sound, even when the amps at half volume. I'm just sort of skeptical, in these I doubt that the fizz you hear when the amp is on 0 volume (it bleeds thru) adds anything to the overall tone that the prescence / treble controls couldn't do. And I do have a feeling a lot of us, even if we got into a gigging situation, would never be able to crank it past 3 unless we unless the gain was set low. And I guess this external master volume is the way to go. I wish all my amps just had master volumes instead of channel volumes - would make everything easier.

I'm working on a "volume box" too (Or really, its sort of a make shift thing, more like a volume control set gently onto whatever cardboard box is handy, for now ;) ). I have a feeling that will be a better, less sensitive volume control, at least compared to my multi-fx units. I kinda do wonder how the pedals work there in the loop anyway, because they tend to have a really high output. I know my Digitech Death metal (dont ask me why I bought it ... ) seems like its either off or too loud.

Edit: 500k pot was too much for a homemade volume box. Two 25k pots in series works out pretty good (or at least, I think they are in series - the second one is supposed to be a tone control, but I think the cap is broken). Just 1 25k pot is a good, precise control, but having 2 makes adjustment a bit easier. Still probably going to get a pedal just to see if it improves anything.

[jagermike66]

I reckon the bad monkey is more tube screamerish than the SD-1, so it can do some real nice blues tones. Also separate bass and treble controls mean you can either brighten up a humbucker, or beef up a single coil if you want, thats one of the main reasons I bought one over a normal screamer type pedal.

Volume 3 eh? I think i'm an exception to that rule :) Iv got a 50 watter and at some gigs im up at 7 or 8 on the boost channel (bout 11 o clock on the gain), with a tube screamer in front (modded 808 kit I built, not the bad monkey, I use that in my covers band). Sounds like pure evil at that volume, but then i am in a metal band so no suprise its that loud. With that said, I'm happy to stomach the added fizz due to the bright cap at low volumes knowing that when i play live its completely different. But....$15 for a volume box is pretty good if it allows me to practice at bedroom volumes with a more ballsy sound! Totally agree about the master volume control, I dont see why all valve amps don't have them.

[Crunchifyable]

Hehe, well 3 might be a bit conservative. With having 2 gain knobs and a boost switch, it's kinda hard to peg the MA at a certain volume level anyway. But yea, I guess it all depends on where you play. I used to gig with a guy whose Fender twin was probably never over 1 :D.

And I agree - 11 o'clock on the gain is sort of the spot I tend to keep mine at when I want a more useable, well rounded sound from boost.

I had a MA50C combo briefly, that seemed much quieter than the MA50H half stack I have now, but had way too much valve rattle unfortunately. Switching to a 1x12 helps at home, but right now I'm not too happy with the speaker I have in the 1x12, so I guess I just use my 4x12. In the end, a half stack is just better on the eyes :D

Using the vol in the loop trick does really give it a ballsy sound, though it seemed to work best on the guitars that already sounded good through the MA. I didn't notice a ton of difference with the guitar that had an EMG 81 - it was the Epi Les Paul with a Duncan 59 in the bridge ( I guess its like a JB with less output, bright and sort of harsh in a good way) that was night and day different, much closer to the tone the tone I hear in my head.

And doing this, I've noticed just how much louder the clean channel is compared to the Overdrive when both are maxed. Steve was quite right in saying the MA would do well with a boost of some kind in the fx loop for more volume or power tube overdrive (if its up loud enough).

Thanks for all the info on the bad monkey. I have had so much digitech stuff over the years, and not all of it good, but I think this will be a good investment :). In the demos, it basically seemed pretty comparable to a SD-1, just having more volume boost on tap, and more control of the EQ :).

Edit: Here's a little A/B demo of the amp using the Digitech RP to control volume (amp set to 5 or 9 or 10, variously), and with pedal bypassed, amp set to 0 and 1. It was at night, so the volumes are pretty low http://www.netmusicians.org/index.php?s ... alue=11822

-- Fri Oct 21, 2011 4:35 pm --

So I tried the Bad Monkey in the loop today for like 5 minutes. As a volume control, it was pretty good. Even great.

Problem is it adds overdrive to the notes, even on the lowest gain setting, and seems like no matter how I use it, it adds a midrange honk (or something) that isn't easy to dial out. I'm guess I'm the third guy here that didn't like the OD pedal in the loop. I didn't have much chance to play with it on the OD channel, where it would probably help the most, all I know is it added hair to the notes on the clean channel, esp with higher output pickups.

Not bad in front of an amp (which is where I'd knew I'd probably end up using it), but my next purchase might be a 2nd Danelectro fish in chips. One up front for boosting / eqing and one in the loop, for cutting / eqing.