Here it is: Vintage Modern vs JVM 410

[DeanM]

id say its the other way around, that it will take kt77s, cos they're a straight swap for el34s. but i havent read the jvm forums!

[GoldFacePlate]

Welcome to the forum GoldFacePlate.

Keep the Body reasonably low and slam the front end with a suitable boost. Experiment with Mid Boost in or out. There is a wide range of tones available from the Vintage Modern's controls if you take the time to properly explore them. Check out the clips section for some great tones from our members here as well as various Youtube clips from others, baring in mind the clips will rarely convey the quality of the original tone 100%.

thanks Steve, I heard you are also the VM guru here and about!
I am going to try out the VM today with my LP and see how it goes. I really like this amp, so I am going to try and make it work for me.

Also, for future VM models, or model updates, do you think the VM would ever have another gain stage, mabye a 2 channeler?

[Ghostrider]

No way would a second channel be good for this amp. Other than having to manage the extra volume between the two ranges the VM will give such a wide range of tones with loads of high gain that a second channel would not improve on.

I use my pedals in low range only and high range with no effects only,works perfect.

[Taz5150]

+! With that, i also only use pedals on LDR. My HDR tone is just guitar and amp. Rob

[GoldFacePlate]

No way would a second channel be good for this amp. Other than having to manage the extra volume between the two ranges the VM will give such a wide range of tones with loads of high gain that a second channel would not improve on.

I use my pedals in low range only and high range with no effects only,works perfect.

Really? I thought this sounded pretty good to me.

-- Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:26 pm --

No way would a second channel be good for this amp. Other than having to manage the extra volume between the two ranges the VM will give such a wide range of tones with loads of high gain that a second channel would not improve on.

I use my pedals in low range only and high range with no effects only,works perfect.

Really? I thought this sounded pretty good to me.

here is a better clip...

[slash-ed]

My 2c. I've been a VM owner for a few months now, switching from using Recto-format amps for the past few years.

I have a feeling everyone has a different idea of "metal", and "heaviness".

If you want the "front of a JCM800 slammed with a Tubescreamer" or similar type of Marshall high gain, the VM can definitely do it, with a boost of some sort. Erikk Von Hyde has some great clips of that kind of Black Label Society-esque type of high gain.

If you want the low-mids emphasized, smooth chug of Rectifier gain, I don't think you will get it from the VM using a boost. You'd probably be best using an actual distortion pedal geared towards that sort of sound. And, if that's the sound you'll be using most - probably a good idea just to go for a Rectifier.

Hope that helps!

[GoldFacePlate]

My 2c. I've been a VM owner for a few months now, switching from using Recto-format amps for the past few years.

I have a feeling everyone has a different idea of "metal", and "heaviness".

If you want the "front of a JCM800 slammed with a Tubescreamer" or similar type of Marshall high gain, the VM can definitely do it, with a boost of some sort. Erikk Von Hyde has some great clips of that kind of Black Label Society-esque type of high gain.

If you want the low-mids emphasized, smooth chug of Rectifier gain, I don't think you will get it from the VM using a boost. You'd probably be best using an actual distortion pedal geared towards that sort of sound. And, if that's the sound you'll be using most - probably a good idea just to go for a Rectifier.

Hope that helps!

I hear ya, but I have tried Recs, and they are also great, but I've come home to a Marshall again. I love the VM, but I think it may leave me wanting more at the end in terms of gain on tap, versatility, functionality, hence why I am flirting with the JVM. In a perfect world, I would buy the VM the JVM and a Rec, but I have a certain amount of funds for new amp gear at the moment.

Have you tried the JVM? interms of gain on tap and tightness, it comes pretty close to a Rec, albeit two different beasts but the closest answer Marshall has to a Mesa.

[surfnorthwest]

If you want more gain and want the VM to give you two channels then the mods from the videos you posted will get you there. Personally I think there is a line between high gain and shit noise. I would try the VM in high range with a pedal before I would perform any mod.

[Tnjpekar]

I have both of them in my rig, and don't use a distortion or overdrive anymore for either. body and detail need to be tweeked for max distortion, then bring the master up and roll back as necessary. Also, a mullard in V1 made a big difference in the amount of cream and compression to the tone.
incidentally, I usually run my time based effects, echo and chorus patch from a lexi, thru the 410 and the only thing the whole rig will get is a bad horsie wha or a boss octaver for certain tunes.

[Slashwannabe1]

There comes a point where too much gain just gets rid of any dynamics and guitar sound and as Surf said "white noise".

I also think people tend to forget you have to "scoup" your mids for that metal tone! Oh and that chunky part of the Metal sound... yeah thats gotten with a a full stack. I think you are confusing gain with the fact you should scoup the mids and turn the bass up and then probably drop the tuning on your guitar.

Shit man buy a metal zone pedal and turn the gain off on it and just have it there to boost the lows, even my Fender Bandmaster sounded like a Randall with that... did it sound good? at times it did but not really for Lead playing or what I was dong musically, but it was for sure Metal sounding with no work or skill involved to get there.

[slash-ed]

I hear ya, but I have tried Recs, and they are also great, but I've come home to a Marshall again. I love the VM, but I think it may leave me wanting more at the end in terms of gain on tap, versatility, functionality, hence why I am flirting with the JVM. In a perfect world, I would buy the VM the JVM and a Rec, but I have a certain amount of funds for new amp gear at the moment.

Have you tried the JVM? interms of gain on tap and tightness, it comes pretty close to a Rec, albeit two different beasts but the closest answer Marshall has to a Mesa.

Hey dude, yeah I tried a JVM while I was amp shopping too - Like you I've come back to the Marshall sound. The JVM was indeed pretty cool for high gain stuff, possibly the best Marshall high-gain in a box amp I've played, but it fell far short of the VM in terms of medium gain and dynamics, which is why I went with the VM.

To be fair, once you get the VM cranking above, say, 3-4 on the master, it does jump in gain quite a bit. Add the mid boost, and using decently high output pickups (I use Tonezones), you can get quite a bit of gain out of it. Slamming the front with a clean boost should take you that extra bit there.

I also think people tend to forget you have to "scoup" your mids for that metal tone! Oh and that chunky part of the Metal sound... yeah thats gotten with a a full stack. I think you are confusing gain with the fact you should scoup the mids and turn the bass up and then probably drop the tuning on your guitar.

Shit man buy a metal zone pedal and turn the gain off on it and just have it there to boost the lows, even my Fender Bandmaster sounded like a Randall with that... did it sound good? at times it did but not really for Lead playing or what I was dong musically, but it was for sure Metal sounding with no work or skill involved to get there.

Sorry man, but I gotta call bullshit there. You absolutely do NOT have to scoop (and it's spelled "scoOp") your mids for metal tone. There are heaps of guys with crushing tones that are full of mids. It also depends on type of mids your amp is emphasizing - Marshall to my ears is more about medium/high mids roar, while the Mesa sound is more lower mids chug.

That chunky part of the metal sound is gotten with a full stack??? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard - do you think that when they're recording, the engineers record each speaker of the full stack?

Brother, that "chunky" thing, it's called palm muting

Your metalzone comment also leads me to believe that you are much more of a rock player, and don't really understand how MANY different types of "metal tones" there are, and the differences between them. A Metalzone is NOT the sound of metal...

[GoldFacePlate]

I hear ya, but I have tried Recs, and they are also great, but I've come home to a Marshall again. I love the VM, but I think it may leave me wanting more at the end in terms of gain on tap, versatility, functionality, hence why I am flirting with the JVM. In a perfect world, I would buy the VM the JVM and a Rec, but I have a certain amount of funds for new amp gear at the moment.

Have you tried the JVM? interms of gain on tap and tightness, it comes pretty close to a Rec, albeit two different beasts but the closest answer Marshall has to a Mesa.

Hey dude, yeah I tried a JVM while I was amp shopping too - Like you I've come back to the Marshall sound. The JVM was indeed pretty cool for high gain stuff, possibly the best Marshall high-gain in a box amp I've played, but it fell far short of the VM in terms of medium gain and dynamics, which is why I went with the VM.

To be fair, once you get the VM cranking above, say, 3-4 on the master, it does jump in gain quite a bit. Add the mid boost, and using decently high output pickups (I use Tonezones), you can get quite a bit of gain out of it. Slamming the front with a clean boost should take you that extra bit there.

I also think people tend to forget you have to "scoup" your mids for that metal tone! Oh and that chunky part of the Metal sound... yeah thats gotten with a a full stack. I think you are confusing gain with the fact you should scoup the mids and turn the bass up and then probably drop the tuning on your guitar.

Shit man buy a metal zone pedal and turn the gain off on it and just have it there to boost the lows, even my Fender Bandmaster sounded like a Randall with that... did it sound good? at times it did but not really for Lead playing or what I was dong musically, but it was for sure Metal sounding with no work or skill involved to get there.

Sorry man, but I gotta call bullshit there. You absolutely do NOT have to scoop (and it's spelled "scoOp") your mids for metal tone. There are heaps of guys with crushing tones that are full of mids. It also depends on type of mids your amp is emphasizing - Marshall to my ears is more about medium/high mids roar, while the Mesa sound is more lower mids chug.

That chunky part of the metal sound is gotten with a full stack??? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard - do you think that when they're recording, the engineers record each speaker of the full stack?

Brother, that "chunky" thing, it's called palm muting

Your metalzone comment also leads me to believe that you are much more of a rock player, and don't really understand how MANY different types of "metal tones" there are, and the differences between them. A Metalzone is NOT the sound of metal...

that was refreshing :chug :chug :chug

[Slashwannabe1]

Sorry man, but I gotta call bullshit there. You absolutely do NOT have to scoop (and it's spelled "scoOp") your mids for metal tone. There are heaps of guys with crushing tones that are full of mids. It also depends on type of mids your amp is emphasizing - Marshall to my ears is more about medium/high mids roar, while the Mesa sound is more lower mids chug.

That chunky part of the metal sound is gotten with a full stack??? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard - do you think that when they're recording, the engineers record each speaker of the full stack?

Brother, that "chunky" thing, it's called palm muting

Your metalzone comment also leads me to believe that you are much more of a rock player, and don't really understand how MANY different types of "metal tones" there are, and the differences between them. A Metalzone is NOT the sound of metal...

Ok now its my turn to tell you what you missed in reading my post Mr. Bull Shit stopper.

I do know the difference between chunky rhythms and palm muting obviously you don't, because you pass chunky off as just palm muting, it can be meant in these following 2 common ways...

#1, If somebody mentions the word "chunky riff" you could be correct to assume they mean a palm muted riff or something heavy sounding.

#2, Somebody is describing an amplifier tone and they say "chunky" (as I was) they are talking about the low end response/heaviness and register of that tone and it does not care how that tone is achieved as long as its achieved. Therefore the reality of my post that you substituted for your own does not mean a fuckin' thing to me or even apply to what I was talking about.

I take it you are a person who reads the first definition in a dictionary and totally forgets that theres possibly 2-3 other meanings to that word.

Yes my main style is Rock N Roll but I am not ignorant to the fact of Metal Tones. My tone has been itself has been described as metal even though I play Rock n Roll and use a healthy dose of mids, my eq is set as 7s and I run a GE-7 with mid boost at times.

The first thing most people think of when you say "metal tone" is lots of low end bass and scooped mids and a ton of distortion. Now thats not to say thats the only way to get a metal tone, its just the typical metal tone and method people use to achieve that sound is all I'm saying.

A Metal tone with mids these days is about as common as a South Central Gang banger with a job! doesn't mean its impossible, its just typically not seen.

Oh and how mature throwing a typo at me to use to insult my intelligence. You Evil Spelling/Typo Nazi.

Oh and the Full Stack thing... You are an absolute idiot calling bs on me for that. Its true full stacks are fuller sounding ask anyone! they push more air and more air means a more heavy sound. Again I didn't say its the only way, I said its one of the many ways used to get that tone.

So I beg to ask you... What in the FUCK was the point of your post? Just to rip on me? because all you did was put words in my mouth and totally if not by ignorance it was on purpose to miss the points I was making.

[slash-ed]

Haha, dude, you really love yourself don't you? I mean, who answers question like "I haven't heard the VM do X aggressive, tight tone... " with "Now you have." and posts a clip of themselves? I hesitate to even say, a clip of your band - calling a guitarist and a drummer a band is like saying, hey, me and my gang will beat you up, and your gang is you, your skinny little brother and your pet cat. And no, even if you could sing, the White Stripes still suck. :dance

By the way, what the hell is a "Bull shit stopper"?

I'm not going to argue semantics with you. I'm not 15, and I don't need to "win teh internetZ" all day long. The original poster has taken what value he can from my post, and I'm happy with that. It seemed a bit more useful to him than waving it off, saying "ohh, my metalzone makes t3h br00taLz lyke kirK".

Metal tones with mids are rare? Try most metal players who use a Marshall, as your starting point. The hotrodded, boosted Marshall roar is an iconic, time-tested metal tone, be it from heavy metal, to classic metal, to hair metal, or any other stupid genre name people can make up. Try Zakk Wylde, try the board's own Erikk Von Hyde, try Mastodon, who use VMs as well, I could go on.

Yes, thank you, full stacks push more air, I didn't know THAT But when you're recording, if you've got a half decent isolation room, you can push a single speaker that hard if you want anyway. And like I've already said, no one mikes a whole damn full stack.

Yeah, you're right. I totally missed the point of what you were saying. In fact, I don't see the point in half the posts you make, except just to show off how much you think of yourself.

:screwU

[GoldFacePlate]

Thanks for your info Slash-ed and Slashwannabe.
There is obviously many ways into bringing an amp into metal overdrive. The metal "tone" I am after is a tight and articulate attack (fast alternate picking of a muted low E or D). Not Black Sabbath, not Judas, not Whitesnake, but more like Metallica Injustice, Slayer, MegaDeath.
Odds are, there is more going on than just amp overdrive anyways alone such as effects, filters, post-prod.

I am not an enemy of OD or distortion pedals. They obviously add to the overall tone pallette, but I desire an amp that can produce large amounts of gain ontap by pushing its tubes as a foundation, like the JVM does.
Recs are awesome amps too, but they have silicon diode in play there and not pure tube distortion.

From my research alone, and experiences the VM has better tone overall, organic, and dynamic but not a true speed or thrash metal amp, and it will leave me desiring more. For me, I love blues, rock, Slash, but I also love metal and modern day metal, and not hung up on recreating the past in tones.

VM 2466 vs JVM410: a JVM which is $300 dollars more, what do I get more in a JVM? A programmable footswitch, MIDI out, JVM 800 circuit foundation, dialing versatility, great cleans, great digital reverb, great resonance controls. More bang for the buck imo.
After warrantee fades off, I can mess around with KT66, and KT77 tubes in the future too and alter the tone and approximate VM somewhat.

If the VM had two channels, with one channel offering much more gain for roughly the same price. I would have jumped on it at this point in time...but thats not to say its closed for the future.