100 watt VM on 40 watt cab.....

[slowpokerhino]

I'm using 2 Classic Lead 80s with my 2466. Much easier to find these used than the 65s and they sound great with the VM.

[frank9310]

If you love them, love the amp, love the tone, and can't easily trade the amp for a 2266, the solution is simple - get an attenuator. If you knock off 3dB that's equivalent to halving the power of the amp - probably just about enough to get you into the safe range, since the 2466 isn't really a full 100W amp - and if you take off 4dB or more, almost certainly safe. Celestions are rated very conservatively compared to most speakers. (But not conservatively enough for what you're doing now!)

You can either do it the conventional way with the attenuator between the amp and speaker, or if you think that will affect the tone too much (which in my opinion it doesn't) you can run the attenuator as a dummy speaker cab, in parallel with the real one, and which will absorb half the amp's power. (Remember to set the amp to half the impedance of the the cab and attenuator.)

If you're in Holland, I'd recommend the Koch Loadbox, which is a well-made attenuator with a useful set of functions including a perfect - for your needs - 40%-level output, and should be easy to find!

http://www.koch-amps.com/koch/index.php ... &Itemid=20

Now there's a great idea C&C! You mean I can take my Marshall PB100 and take one out as a dummy load into the PB100, then one line out to my cab and do you think that might help it to stop squealing from that squeal problem I had with the PB100?

I dropped it (PB100) off at my amp tech's and he said he ran a test on it and the transformer tested ok so the squeal caused by the PB100 (from my other thread) must just be the nature of the beast.

So if I have an 8 Ohm cab, what would I set the amp to and the PB100?

[guitarguru]

If you love them, love the amp, love the tone, and can't easily trade the amp for a 2266, the solution is simple - get an attenuator. If you knock off 3dB that's equivalent to halving the power of the amp - probably just about enough to get you into the safe range, since the 2466 isn't really a full 100W amp - and if you take off 4dB or more, almost certainly safe. Celestions are rated very conservatively compared to most speakers. (But not conservatively enough for what you're doing now!)

You can either do it the conventional way with the attenuator between the amp and speaker, or if you think that will affect the tone too much (which in my opinion it doesn't) you can run the attenuator as a dummy speaker cab, in parallel with the real one, and which will absorb half the amp's power. (Remember to set the amp to half the impedance of the the cab and attenuator.)

If you're in Holland, I'd recommend the Koch Loadbox, which is a well-made attenuator with a useful set of functions including a perfect - for your needs - 40%-level output, and should be easy to find!

http://www.koch-amps.com/koch/index.php ... &Itemid=20

Now there's a great idea C&C! You mean I can take my Marshall PB100 and take one out as a dummy load into the PB100, then one line out to my cab and do you think that might help it to stop squealing from that squeal problem I had with the PB100?

I dropped it (PB100) off at my amp tech's and he said he ran a test on it and the transformer tested ok so the squeal caused by the PB100 (from my other thread) must just be the nature of the beast.

So if I have an 8 Ohm cab, what would I set the amp to and the PB100?

You would have to have to have a 8 Ohm attenuator I guess, to be even. (Well might not be nescessary......) Set your amp at 4 Ohm.
So half the power goes into your cab now? Still to much for me... What if I have a 4 Ohm att.? More power would be absorbed by it, because of the mismatch?

[lukemc]

i have used the 100 watt vm on two greenbacks with teh attenuator on -3DB for many gigs with teh Low range REALLy cranked on volume and body and detail and had no problems.
however how much my tone improved when i swtiched to using my 425A is priceless.

[ClubAndCountry]

Yes, if you run a 4-ohm attenuator as a dummy load in parallel with an 8-ohm cab, 2/3 of the power goes to the dummy load and only 1/3 to the cab - but there's then a fairly serious mismatch too, since the total impedance is now only 2.66 ohms. This is probably not a good idea if you're cranking the amp.

You're actually much better to use a normal 8-ohm attenuator, normally - especially the Koch where the first level down is 40% output, which is perfect for your needs and is unlikely to alter the tone much, if at all. Even if you use it as a dummy load, a 50% reduction is probably enough in your situation since the 2466 is only about a 75W amp really, so you'll be just safe with half the power going to the cab. Celestions are tough! They seem to be designed to handle a cranked amp of the rated power, rather than the full distorted power output (which is higher). Marshall fitted their 50W combos - which really were 50W! - with two G12M-25s all through the 70s, and they don't blow very often. They just aren't tough enough that I would run a 75W amp into two 20W speakers...

[Green Manalishi]

Though I haven't actally heard them, many people recommend Scumbacks for Greenback tone with higher wattge handling. Also, Eminence red coat line has Greenback clones that can handle 50w each.
I am having a 2x12 cab made for my VM, and I am putting in two WGS ET-65s, which are the G12-65 clones.

The higher wattage handling will probably be a tradeoff in tone, and I bet those Greenbacks sound great!

[ClubAndCountry]

I haven't heard any Scumbacks, but I have heard some of those Eminences which claim to 'clone' some classic Celestions, and my experience is that they sound like Eminences. It's hard to put a finger on exactly why, but I haven't liked any of them, just as I don't like any other Eminences really (for guitar at least, I quite like some of their bass speakers). I'm not sure I understand the point - if you want a Celestion sound, get a Celestion. My opinion is that nothing else sounds the same, and nothing else goes so well with a Marshall either. It's true that they don't do every voicing in the power ratings that some people require for some amps, but they do other models that are fairly close (like the 65s vs 25s) and I would guess that the 'clones' don't sound any more similar either.

You also need to be careful with the claimed power and sensitivity ratings of Eminences compared to Celestions. Again it's hard to put any definite figures on it, but from hearing them and seeing a fair number of blown ones, I would say that Eminence's ratings could be as much as 50% and 3dB over-rated compared to Celestions of similar types.

Not *all* Celestions are great - in particular I really don't like a lot of the 'special' ones that Marshall seem to use in their modern combos (sorry SteveD) - but in general I would pick any Celestion over any Eminence, assuming you're comparing at least similar models.

[frank9310]

Save your money on the SBs. Dullest sounding speaker I've ever owned. Can't do a pinched harmonic, no chime, forget an EVH type octave dive bomb (not there) no harmonic complexiy at all.

Get yourself a 60 watt Celestion Vintage 30 and a G12H30 and the G12H30 wiil tame the mids and highs of the V30 and give you more than enough power handling since the 2466 is only 77 watts dimed.

You will actually sound very close to a 4x12 Greenback cab using the above combination tone-wise but a little more focused and syrupy, better mid punch. The tight low end of the G12H30 mixed with the looseer, marm low end of the V30 blended together is what makes them sound like a Greenback but with more mid punch and better mids.

[Slashwannabe1]

You should have just asked me what happens when you put a 100watt Vintage Modern up to 8-9 on the master volume on a 100 watt cab...

Smoke and Fire is the result after 5 min of chunky metal riffs.

Pretty sure a 40 watt cab would go in the first 30 seconds.

[guitarguru]

You should have just asked me what happens when you put a 100watt Vintage Modern up to 8-9 on the master volume on a 100 watt cab...

Smoke and Fire is the result after 5 min of chunky metal riffs.

Pretty sure a 40 watt cab would go in the first 30 seconds.

I always play in Low Dynamic Range, with the Master 3/4 to full, and the body and detail just before noon. I do use a overdrive and a solobooster. It gets pretty loud, but no problems so far. Rehursed with the band yesterday this way. Good sound!
But I'm considering a Weber MASS to further tame the output power of my 2466, just to be safe. Or try G12-65's. Not sure yet.

[surfnorthwest]

Get yourself a 60 watt Celestion Vintage 30 and a G12H30 and the G12H30

Still one of the best pairing combinations for a good rock amp, I have a 4x12 loaded with two of each and use my Granger M50 with that cabinet

[ClubAndCountry]

Frank - a V30 (60W) and a G12H-30 (30W) is *not* enough for a 77W amp - it's only a 60W pair. (Not 90W, if you thought that!) The power is divided equally between the two speakers so you can't put more than 60W through the pair before the H30 gets 30W. So you're actually wasting the higher rating of the V30 entirely - it will handle the 60W on its own.

I prefer either the G12H-30/G12M-25 mix, or the V30/Classic Lead 80 - those mixes just sound more 'right' to me than the V30/H30 - which admittedly I only tried once (and only in a 2x12", not a 4x12") but thought the speakers sounded as if they were fighting each other a bit. You also can't drive the V30 hard (which it likes) without overpowering the H30 (which it doesn't). The other two combinations allow you to drive the right speaker fully before the other one reaches its limit. Just my opinion of course, and there are probably as many of those as combinations of speakers! Another apparently popular combination I don't like is a V30 with a G12M-25 - it sounds too unbalanced to me.

Slashwannabe - wasn't that 100W cab loaded with Jensens? They are very weak in relation to Celestions of the same rating, less even than Eminences... I wouldn't say much more than half the equivalent Celestion rating, and if so it doesn't surprise me that you fried a "100W" cab with them in, using a 77W amp. But a Celestion 100W cab will take a 100W amp unless you're really hammering it with an octave fuzz or something like that.

(I'm inherently suspicious of any company that quotes 'music power' on their specs, by the way.)

[Slashwannabe1]

Frank - a V30 (60W) and a G12H-30 (30W) is *not* enough for a 77W amp - it's only a 60W pair. (Not 90W, if you thought that!) The power is divided equally between the two speakers so you can't put more than 60W through the pair before the H30 gets 30W. So you're actually wasting the higher rating of the V30 entirely - it will handle the 60W on its own.

I prefer either the G12H-30/G12M-25 mix, or the V30/Classic Lead 80 - those mixes just sound more 'right' to me than the V30/H30 - which admittedly I only tried once (and only in a 2x12", not a 4x12") but thought the speakers sounded as if they were fighting each other a bit. You also can't drive the V30 hard (which it likes) without overpowering the H30 (which it doesn't). The other two combinations allow you to drive the right speaker fully before the other one reaches its limit. Just my opinion of course, and there are probably as many of those as combinations of speakers! Another apparently popular combination I don't like is a V30 with a G12M-25 - it sounds too unbalanced to me.

Slashwannabe - wasn't that 100W cab loaded with Jensens? They are very weak in relation to Celestions of the same rating, less even than Eminences... I wouldn't say much more than half the equivalent Celestion rating, and if so it doesn't surprise me that you fried a "100W" cab with them in, using a 77W amp. But a Celestion 100W cab will take a 100W amp unless you're really hammering it with an octave fuzz or something like that.

(I'm inherently suspicious of any company that quotes 'music power' on their specs, by the way.)

I had the Jensen Mod12-50s, 50 watt each 100 watt musical power each LOL I figured I was safe with the musical power added on intially. I actually did like the tone of those. I did manage to save 1 of those speakers and I put it in place of one of my Celestion G12-Fs that sounded flabby in my 4x12 cab when clean. So my 4x12 now consists of 3 G12-fs and 1 Mod 12-50 running together @ 8 ohms. The other Mod12-50 was a complete loss all charred up.

What do you mean 77 watts? maybe clean? I run my 2466 full bore 85% of time on the Dirtyest settings (Hi Dynamic Range) with a mid boosted GE-7 :-)

[frank9310]

Frank - a V30 (60W) and a G12H-30 (30W) is *not* enough for a 77W amp - it's only a 60W pair. (Not 90W, if you thought that!) The power is divided equally between the two speakers so you can't put more than 60W through the pair before the H30 gets 30W. So you're actually wasting the higher rating of the V30 entirely - it will handle the 60W on its own.

Yeah I know what you mean and in theory that is true, but the G12H30 is a tough speaker (with a 50 oz magnet vs 35 oz on a greenback with a stiff bass cone) as is the V30 where Marshall rates them at 70 watts and this is the combination they use in their JCM 2000 TSL 122 100 watt combo amp and tout it as the best match in the world for vintage and modern sounds. Also, many others I've seen around the forums seem to agree. So if Marshall feels they're a match made in heaven for their 100 watt amp, then surely the 77 watt (100 watt maximum) 2466 should work just fine, especially if you're not one to dime your amp on high range on a regular basis. I used to play a Dr Z Route 66 (2xKT66s) which is equivalent to a JTM45 in terms of output and I ran a single G12H30 with that for several 4+ hour gigs dimed with an overdrive such as an OCD or ZVex box of rock, probably pushing close to 50 watts and never had a problem. Still works and sounds great.

Slashwannabe1 wrote:You should have just asked me what happens when you put a 100watt Vintage Modern up to 8-9 on the master volume on a 100 watt cab...

Smoke and Fire is the result after 5 min of chunky metal riffs.

Pretty sure a 40 watt cab would go in the first 30 secohnds.

Man something's gotta be headed south there because I regularly run my 2466 on 8-9 through 2 x v30s on high range with 2 stacked overdrives on top of that and seems to work fine! (knock on wood!;-)

[ClubAndCountry]

I *could* be wrong, but I'm almost certain that the two speakers in a TSL100 combo are a "Vintage" (which is a V30) and a "Heritage", which is an M-magnet speaker I think based on or identical to the old G12M-70. This makes them both rated at a minimum of 120W even if the V30 is a 60W speaker. You can easily check - if the other speaker has a smaller magnet than the Vintage, then it's not a G12H-30.

The 60W or 70W rating of the V30 seems to be for open or closed back cabinets. Open-back allows a speaker to resonate more and lowers its power handling slightly, although the V30 seems to be one of the very few where this is actually listed in the specs. The TSL100 combo is an odd 'semi-closed' back with fairly dense grilles over the open sections, so maybe the 70W rating applies, in which case the pair could be 140W. Even if the other speaker is something lower-rated, it's also unlikely that you'll ever crank this type of amp fully, since if you do you lose the clean sound on channel 1. There's a very big difference in speaker stress between running an amp at just under its maximum clean headroom (which produces peaks of up to the full rated power, but a significantly lower average), and cranking it fully into distortion (which produces continuous output well above the rated power).

I agree that H30s are pretty tough for a 30W speaker, but Celestion do rate it at 30W for a reason. I would not run one as half the load on any amp above 60W that's going to be cranked fully into power amp distortion - you might have got away with it, but who knows for how long :-). I'm also surprised it sounded good - H30s often suffer from 'cone cry' when pushed really hard (which is why I prefer to use them mixed with a 25), although not all do so perhaps you just got a good one! I suppose the advantage of running one as half a V30/H30 pair with a 2466 is that if you blow it, the resulting impedance doubling should drop the amp's power to around 60W and the V30 will handle that... although blowing a speaker is never a good idea since the sudden impedance doubling can do nasty things to the amp, even if both don't fail and leave it open-circuit.