Vintage Modern Mods Question For SteveD or other modders

[frank9310]

SteveD

In another section I posted those youtube videos of somebody who did some 2 channel and solo boost mods among others to the VM. At first, I thought it looked like a crazy bastardization of the amp but then after reading the guy's description of these mods, they seem to make sense and something I might look at doing down the road. I know you have nothing against modders so just wanted to get your opinion if these sound like they could be an improvement or destructive to the amp. The prices look to be fairly hefty once you add them all up and who knows if they would improve the amp. Can you please comment on what he says he does, if it sounds credible, etc.?

The list of mods says:

Vintage Modern mods

Standard mods My standard mods are my bottom line price to get inside that particular model amp and make circuit changes. While I do have a mod in mind based on customer feedback on that model, my mods are all adjusted to fit your needs and change the amp in the ways you need it changed.

My standard Vintage Modern mod gives the amp a meatier tone with strong crunchy mids that cut thru. I offer several options for gain levels and voicing.

Two channel mod The Vintage Modern is essentially a Plexi circuit with a PPIMV (post phase inverter master volume). On the VM instead of 4 input jacks Marshall gives you one so you don't have to jump them like everyone did with the Plexi. The Detail channel is the bright channel and the Body channel is your normal channel and you mix them to get your overall tone. I find the Detail too bright and the Body too dark and I can't find a mix I like. Many people have asked me about making the volume levels between the high/low range dynamics closer so they were more usable as 2 channels. My two channel mod offers this. I modify each channel so they bost have a good mix of Plexi tones. The Body channel works the same and becomes the low range channel. The Detail becomes the high range channel and I add a master volume to this channel. The PPIMV still functions like it alwasy did. This gives you a low gain Plexi tone and a higher gain Plexi/JCM800 tone with volumes that can be matched. This mod involves drilling a new hole in the front of the amp (pics above).

X-treme metal mod This mod combines the two channel mod with adding an extra gain stage for over the top gain levels on the high range channel.

Solo Boost As you probably already know running a boost in the loop doesn't work on this amp. I can add a foot switchable solo boost to the VM. This mod involves drilling a new hole in the front of the amp and one on the back for the foot switch.

Added gain stage Adds an extra tube gain stage to increase the overall gain of the amp.

Added choke Installing a choke in an amp that doesn't have one can improve the bottom end punch, sustain, feel, and noise levels. The Vintage Modern amp doesn't come with a choke from the factory.

2 Channel with Solo Boost Mod

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Another one like it
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Just solo boost
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[surfnorthwest]

Those mods all seem useful if someone really felt they wanted more gain out of the Vintage Modern or found the second channel useful while performing. Many guys still struggle with the two ranges and the volume difference but us old school players are used to playing using the guitar volume and don't need two three channel amps, I hate them and all my amps are single channel.

Years ago I was into the amp mod thing myself but learned after spending insane money on some of it that if your current amp isn't doing something you want it is better either to sell it and find one that will or get a second amp that will do what the VM won't. Personally I think adding a mod that puts more gain into the VM is not a good thing. There is a fine line between gain sounding good and sounding like shit. To me the VM is articulate even at its highest gain where pedals can push it into "that sounds like shit" territory.

Perhaps that is why I have the the different amps I have, they all have a purpose and all have something the other amps of mine don't. Not trying to talk you out of exploring a mod for your amp but again I think it is better today to just find the amp that will do what you are looking for, we are lucky to have the choices we have today in amps.

[VMGravy]

prety sure i can get that with my les paul, two volume knobs set one to low volume and the other tto high and guess what theirs a toggle switch almost a two channel right there, sounds good too me, mabye its the painkillers but why tamper with sometihing good, mods = moods, buy another amp

[frank9310]

Ah yeah I see what you mean. The main one I thought would be useful for my purposes of having a Trower-Hendrix Tribute band is I like to jump back and forth between Jimi type stuff on low range with a fuzz and/or OCD overdrive to Trower who uses the high range and his RTO overdrive and Fulldrive pedal as a solo boost.

So what I'd really like to have is the ability to adjust the high range volume so I could keep the master on 8 on low range and jump over to high range without it taking heads off or having to remember to turn down the master or overdrive pedals to compensate.

I wouldn't want any solo boost or any of that stuff that would give it more gain as I can do solo boosts with pedals. I just would like to have the ability to lower the volume of the high range to match the low range volume without losing the tone dynamics of how the high range would sound without the reduction or when it's dimed, or disabled, it's out of the circuit. Even a button like the mid boost button to equalize or cut the high range volume to match the low range volume would be great. Does this sound possible?

Different amp?! Not on your life!

[ClubAndCountry]

What I find puzzling about the single-channel vs. channel-switching argument is that there's absolutely no reason you can't use a channel-switcher in *exactly* the same way as a single-channel amp. I've done the guitar-volume thing too, in a few bands - it's great if you only want certain combinations of volumes and tones... ie quieter/cleaner, medium/crunch and loud/screaming. But it doesn't work at all if you want loud, shimmering cleans and *quieter* crunch rhythm, for example.

For what it's worth, I own a non-channel switching, relatively low-powered non-master volume amp! It's sometimes unnecessary to have more. But there are other times when it just does not work... at least not without pedals. Hence I also have a high-powered channel switcher - although one of the nice features about it is the ability to 'clone' the channels, so you can have two of the same thing with slightly different settings. Or, completely different. And I still use my guitar volume control on the overdrive sounds with it.

Channel switching just gives you the option of breaking the gain-to-volume link - which you *cannot* do from the guitar, because the guitar 'volume' control is actually a *gain* control in the context of the whole system. And if it's done right, it doesn't compromise the tone of the amp either, contrary to popular myth. In its simplest form - and possibly best - the switching simply lets you choose different control configurations for the same circuitry. So what you get is two (or more, if you want) of your favourite settings on your favourite amp... so it still *sounds* like the same amp too.

What would be not to like about that? Why have to carry two separate amps to do the same thing if you only want two settings that both exist on the same one anyway? The VM is already "cheating" by having a mode footswitch :-), why not do the job thoroughly and make the rest of the control settings foot-selectable as well? There is no reason a switching system that simply chooses two sets of control positions has to sound any different from the way Neil Young's "Whizzer" device works - which is a motorised controller that literally physically turns the knobs on his ancient Tweed Deluxe - even if it actually uses two sets of pots instead of one.

This isn't really going to be achievable by modding the Vintage Modern - it's probably too complicated if you have to start from the existing PCB. But it could very easily be designed into a new 'Vintage Modern II' - Marshall already have the technology fully developed and use it in the JVM... which personally I found a sterile-sounding amp, but the reason for that is the chosen voicing and overall circuit, not the switching. (With apologies as usual to anyone who likes this amp! I'm sure there are good sounds in it for some people.)

I agree about not adding more gain. There's no point when you can easily boost the front end with a pedal. I also agree about not hacking up a perfectly good amp with extra holes and stuff - although if you're going to, at least it looks like this guy does it fairly well and tastefully. There's nothing worse than an extra knob fitted out of line or in some stupid place that's just obviously wrong (like through some of the panel printing) - there's no excuse for poor workmanship like that, no matter what you're trying to achieve... it can *always* be done so it looks professional, and that should give you a clue as to whether it's been done professionally inside too.

I do mod amps, but nowadays I only ever do simple voicing and sometimes function changes - I do tend to agree that if the amp is not doing what you want it to, you need a different amp (or pedals) - but there are definitely times when what you want doesn't exist, and there is something out there that's *almost* right, so it is worth modding that one instead of replacing it.

[SteveD]

The FJA mods have evolved from customer requests and probably Jerry's own preferences. As I've said before, no company can release an amp that satisfies everyone, so there will always be a modding market which I see more as a personalising market.

A primary difference between single dynamic channel amps and multi channel switchers is the level of signal fed to the power amp at clean/crunch/lead. In single dynamic channel amps like the Vintage Modern, Plexis etc. this signal can reach significant amplitudes and drive the power amp very hard indeed making it contribute a large proportion to the distortion characteristic in the cranked (lead) sound. In the clean sound the signal being fed to the power amp is proportionately smaller by virtue of the amp settings and/or the guitar volume setting and playing dynamic. (This is why there must be a volume difference between the High/Low Ranges in order to preserve the dynamic levels in all respects).

In channel switchers it is more usual to generate the majority of the final sound of all modes at the preamp stage and feed the results in smaller, more line level like amplitudes to the power amp which will operate more in the linear region.

Each system has a particular sonic agenda especially when cranked. Neither is more correct than the other, just different and more applicable to certain scenarios and types of player.

A proper 2 channel Plexi or Vintage Modern is a 'rainbow's gold' in my opinion and a contradiction in terms. However, that is not to say they couldn't be converted into 2 channel amps, but, expecting them to retain all characteristics of their sound is truly optimistic.

[ClubAndCountry]

SteveD, why wouldn't it work if it was built exactly as I described? Same amp, same sounds, just two different sets of pots with relay switching to engage whichever ones were in use. (OK, temporarily ignoring the problem of switching noise, but that's not impossible to fix.) If you can get two different sounds out of the same amp by manually adjusting one set of knobs, why can you not get those same two sounds by having two sets of knobs instead of one? All you're doing is electronically the same as having a roadie run over to the amp and turn the knobs... but much quicker and only having to kick it once :-).

[SteveD]

SteveD, why wouldn't it work if it was built exactly as I described? Same amp, same sounds, just two different sets of pots with relay switching to engage whichever ones were in use. (OK, temporarily ignoring the problem of switching noise, but that's not impossible to fix.) If you can get two different sounds out of the same amp by manually adjusting one set of knobs, why can you not get those same two sounds by having two sets of knobs instead of one? All you're doing is electronically the same as having a roadie run over to the amp and turn the knobs... but much quicker and only having to kick it once :-).

Because whichever way you look at it you have to subtract something. You would need to bring the level of the 'OD channel' down so it would be a better match to the maximum clean available which is the essence of channel switchers. By doing so you would not get the same sound or harmonic contribution from the power amp when cranked. You could of course compensate by boosting gain in the preamp but at the end of the day you will end up with a different amp.

Designing a Vintage Modern II to be channel switching would make it a different amp and I suspect that people would be wanting that (lost) extra gain restored (albeit in the preamp) which would further differentiate it from it's original format.

People who have used EQ pedals to cut the volume in the FX loop (as opposed to boosting) have experienced this already to an extent.

[frank9310]

SteveD, I'm no electrician but trying to follow what you're saying and I understand what you mean about the dynamics differences between a single channel Plexi vs. amps with that lower line level feeds that make the amp sound too controlled and can't ever seem to go into raging dimed Plexi mode no matter how hard you drive them. I talked to my amp tech and he suggested these 2 things and wanted to bounce this off you to see if you had considered this or if it would be possible,.

However, what about the possibility of adding a cloned PPIMV with one for the low range and one for the high range and have those footswitchable by some kind of relay coming off the hi-low switch with maybe a cap and a diode and or shielding to help cut any popping sound from the relay?

Or how about adding a 1 meg pot, the middle lug goes to the signal line on the input of the phase inverter. Then from one of the outer lugs on the pot (not sure which one) you connect it to a normally open contact on a relay then the other side of that normally open contact would go to ground. When the relay is energized, it puts the 1 meg pot in the cuircuit which will allow you to control the volume when in high range. When relay is denergized, the 1 meg pot is out of the circuit. To bypass the pot completely to stock, put an enable-disable switch in series with the relay coil.

What do you think?

[SteveD]

SteveD, I'm no electrician but trying to follow what you're saying and I understand what you mean about the dynamics differences between a single channel Plexi vs. amps with that lower line level feeds that make the amp sound too controlled and can't ever seem to go into raging dimed Plexi mode no matter how hard you drive them. I talked to my amp tech and he suggested these 2 things and wanted to bounce this off you to see if you had considered this or if it would be possible,.

However, what about the possibility of adding a cloned PPIMV with one for the low range and one for the high range and have those footswitchable by some kind of relay coming off the hi-low switch with maybe a cap and a diode and or shielding to help cut any popping sound from the relay?

SD: I suspect you would just end up reducing the master volume level of the High range only, in an attempt to get the two levels more like a dual channel amp. But the sound of the High Range would always sound like it does with lower master volume settings. Maybe this would work for you I don't know.

Or how about adding a 1 meg pot, the middle lug goes to the signal line on the input of the phase inverter. Then from one of the outer lugs on the pot (not sure which one) you connect it to a normally open contact on a relay then the other side of that normally open contact would go to ground. When the relay is energized, it puts the 1 meg pot in the cuircuit which will allow you to control the volume when in high range. When relay is denergized, the 1 meg pot is out of the circuit. To bypass the pot completely to stock, put an enable-disable switch in series with the relay coil.

What do you think?

SD: This will still have a significant affect on the sound as you would be reducing drive to a stage that contributes a substantial part of the sonic equation.

[frank9310]

yes I see what you mean. The only way to compensate for the volume reduction is to hit the front end of the high range harder with an overdrive to emulate the cranked sound. Not ideal but it could work...

[MKB]

Just one thought on all this: I'm not sure what FJA charges for his mods, but consider instead buying a good quality loud combo amp for cleans, and use an amp switcher. I used a red stripe Peavey Bandit which sounds good clean (but it isn't a Twin Reverb) with the VM, and got the best of both worlds. Those amps are going used for around $140 or so on ebay, and you can get simple amp switchers for well under $100.

I've modded every amp I have ever owned, some extensively, but the only amp I've owned that is totally untouched except for tube swaps is the VM. I haven't even taken the chassis out of the cab. It sounds so good as it is I don't want to change a thing, and can't imagine how it could be improved. I'd be afraid any modification would ruin the essence of what it is.

[ClubAndCountry]

'Just use another amp' doesn't work if you have limited space on stage or in your car, don't want the expense or hassle of buying and carrying another amp, use a complex effects set-up with some pedals in the loop, or probably several other reasons. I *really* don't understand the reluctance to make an already good amp better by simply curing the major problem it has for some users in a live setting, namely the large volume jump when switching to the High range. If you ever run the master volume lower in the High range than the Low - which I'm guessing almost everyone does at least on some occasions - then adding a second switched master volume will not change *anything* about the tone or 'essence' of the amp, it will just give you access to two sounds you already use. You could even set them exactly the same if you wanted, and have it precisely as it is now!

And it *is* meant to be used in a live setting, or why else make it foot switchable? I just don't understand the lack of logic here.

[SteveD]

As far as I am concerned anyone who owns a Vintage Modern can do what they wish to make it "better". There are many players who would prefer it exactly like it is and have no problem whatsoever using it.

We have quite a few channel switchers in our catalogue and there is little sense in converting other models which are meant to accomodate different types of players. Plexis also fall into this same group. Do we also change those? Wait, we already have - they are called DSLs, TSLs etc. etc.

When will people stop thinking of the Low Dynamic Range as a clean channel??

[Kongels]

People are used to a footswitch changing channels so that is part of the whole confusion and the two channels (ranges). I think I remember SteveD saying originally the amp was only to have one range and that was the High. The reverb and ranges were added down the road right?