Vintage Modern Mods Question For SteveD or other modders

[ClubAndCountry]

SteveD - the problem is that the DSL/TSL/JVM etc all sound completely different. What if you want a *vintage* sounding amp with switchable settings?

When are people going to stop thinking of channel-switching as automatically dictating a modern sounding amp and a vintage-type sound as dictating a single-channel amp?! It *doesn't* have to be like that - the voicing and gain structure of the amp is unrelated to whether some aspects of it are switchable or not - perhaps Marshall should be the first of the major manufacturers to break the mould and offer a great Vintage-sounding amp with Modern features. Which is where I came in, I think... that's what I expected, hence one of the reasons I found the amp frustrating.

I'm also not thinking of the Low range as a 'clean channel' - although it is clearly more suitable for clean*er* sounds, and for rolling back the guitar volume to *get* clean ones. The problem is that if you do that, the volume is then vastly lower than in the High mode at similar amp settings, to the point where it makes it hard to use live. If you're going to make it footswitchable at all, surely you must be aware that it *will* be used like that - and if you're going to put a master volume on it at all, clearly it's designed to be be turned down without ruining the tone - you yourself said that it's capable of great tones at low volumes... so why not just combine both features?

Or is it more about marketing perception than logic? Like not putting 'High' and 'Gain' anywhere on the same amp? :-) Not trying to needle you, just asking! I'm sure you know very well that simply adding a second master volume would not change the tone of the amp in any way. It's not even any more 'channel' switching than adding in an extra gain stage to the same signal path is. It would probably only require one more relay and one more pot.

I'm also not keen on the idea of hacking up an amp to achieve this, even if it's fairly easy. I don't mind swapping component values and minor stuff like that, but cutting PCB traces and drilling holes in panels is somewhere I don't want to go.

The really funny thing for me is that the amp I play at the moment - while usually perceived as a high-gain channel-switcher - actually works exactly like that, one signal path with switchable control settings. It doesn't even add in any extra stages for the higher-gain modes. I also almost always use it to switch between between semi-clean and not-very-overdriven. But it isn't a *Marshall*, unfortunately...

[lukemc]

i really dont understand why people think that rolling down the volume doesnt ''Work''.
if you bought the VM and are thinkng of modding it to get more Channels. you really bought the wrong amp IMO.
surely you must of tried this all out before you bought it, or knew of the potential problems you might have with a single channel amp?

also if your having trouble getting cleans with the guitar volume.
try getting your master volume up more. but if you cant get that high enough, were back to the you bought the wrong amp for you argument.

[Bailz]

i really dont understand why people think that rolling down the volume doesnt ''Work''.
if you bought the VM and are thinkng of modding it to get more Channels. you really bought the wrong amp IMO.
surely you must of tried this all out before you bought it, or knew of the potential problems you might have with a single channel amp?

also if your having trouble getting cleans with the guitar volume.
try getting your master volume up more. but if you cant get that high enough, were back to the you bought the wrong amp for you argument.

Nail on the head.

[Green Manalishi]

Line 6 makes amps that can do all those fancy shmancy switching to clean/OD, plus all those effects and all, with just a step of a footswitch, so that is an option. And you could add a Digitech multi-effects unit on top of that and get every type of sound effect (twice) you want.

I am good with my "limited" one (and only one) channel VM that gives me tone and more tone.

[spidey]

i really dont understand why people think that rolling down the volume doesnt ''Work''.
if you bought the VM and are thinkng of modding it to get more Channels. you really bought the wrong amp IMO.
surely you must of tried this all out before you bought it, or knew of the potential problems you might have with a single channel amp?

also if your having trouble getting cleans with the guitar volume.
try getting your master volume up more. but if you cant get that high enough, were back to the you bought the wrong amp for you argument.

Exactly! I got a Marshall Vintage Modern because it suited me and does what I need. I wouldn't change a thing about it. I think Steve succeeded 100% with this design and it's goals. As Steve rightly points out, there are plenty of channel switchers in the Marshall range if that's what you want and you want to play a Marshall.

[DeanM]

SteveD - the problem is that the DSL/TSL/JVM etc all sound completely different. What if you want a *vintage* sounding amp with switchable settings?

When are people going to stop thinking of channel-switching as automatically dictating a modern sounding amp and a vintage-type sound as dictating a single-channel amp?! It *doesn't* have to be like that - the voicing and gain structure of the amp is unrelated to whether some aspects of it are switchable or not - perhaps Marshall should be the first of the major manufacturers to break the mould and offer a great Vintage-sounding amp with Modern features. Which is where I came in, I think... that's what I expected, hence one of the reasons I found the amp frustrating.

I'm also not thinking of the Low range as a 'clean channel' - although it is clearly more suitable for clean*er* sounds, and for rolling back the guitar volume to *get* clean ones. The problem is that if you do that, the volume is then vastly lower than in the High mode at similar amp settings, to the point where it makes it hard to use live. If you're going to make it footswitchable at all, surely you must be aware that it *will* be used like that - and if you're going to put a master volume on it at all, clearly it's designed to be be turned down without ruining the tone - you yourself said that it's capable of great tones at low volumes... so why not just combine both features?

Or is it more about marketing perception than logic? Like not putting 'High' and 'Gain' anywhere on the same amp? :-) Not trying to needle you, just asking! I'm sure you know very well that simply adding a second master volume would not change the tone of the amp in any way. It's not even any more 'channel' switching than adding in an extra gain stage to the same signal path is. It would probably only require one more relay and one more pot.

I'm also not keen on the idea of hacking up an amp to achieve this, even if it's fairly easy. I don't mind swapping component values and minor stuff like that, but cutting PCB traces and drilling holes in panels is somewhere I don't want to go.

The really funny thing for me is that the amp I play at the moment - while usually perceived as a high-gain channel-switcher - actually works exactly like that, one signal path with switchable control settings. It doesn't even add in any extra stages for the higher-gain modes. I also almost always use it to switch between between semi-clean and not-very-overdriven. But it isn't a *Marshall*, unfortunately...

well i think that the whole point of vintage amps is the way they respond to the player, why do you buy a vintage style amp? cos of how it reacts to the guitars volume etc. and if thats an attraction of such a style of amp, then it doesnt make sense to make it a channel switcher as that is not what *most* people will want out of it. take a JTM45 for instance, its the sound and the response you get out of em that make them what they are. the thought of a channel switchin JTM45 to me makes no sense! IMO people go for vintage style amps cos its the "old school" way that appeals to them and "the old school way" involves using the guitar controls as opposed to channel switching.

i get what your sayin tho! that you'd like a channel switcher that offers various vintage sounds rather than the typical modern sounds found from most switchers. but as i said i just dont believe that the majority of people would like that over a standard vintage style amp.

plus dude your an amp tech!! buy a DSL and mod it to sound vintage! that would make a whole lot more sense than trying to convert the VM!!

-- Tue Dec 15, 2009 4:56 pm --

i really dont understand why people think that rolling down the volume doesnt ''Work''.
if you bought the VM and are thinkng of modding it to get more Channels. you really bought the wrong amp IMO.
surely you must of tried this all out before you bought it, or knew of the potential problems you might have with a single channel amp?

also if your having trouble getting cleans with the guitar volume.
try getting your master volume up more. but if you cant get that high enough, were back to the you bought the wrong amp for you argument.

Exactly! I got a Marshall Vintage Modern because it suited me and does what I need. I wouldn't change a thing about it. I think Steve succeeded 100% with this design and it's goals. As Steve rightly points out, there are plenty of channel switchers in the Marshall range if that's what you want and you want to play a Marshall.

+1!! i had gear i used before the VM and was always trying to get out of it what i can get out of the VM with ease! the whole guitar knob control was what i was searchin for without even realising it! and when i found out about the VM i knew it was exactly what i needed!!

[SteveD]

SteveD - the problem is that the DSL/TSL/JVM etc all sound completely different.

This is my whole point!

Do you really think the older Plexis weren't a target tone for certain channels on some of the more modern amps of the last 20 years or so. Even the JMP1 had 'vintage voiced' patches but that can only ever be half the story. Consider the 'Classic' channel on a DSL!

The power amp's contribution has a lot more to do with vintage tone and feel (especially when overdriven) which makes a clean channel of 'relatively equal volume' in the same amp undoable unless you are switching to another or extra power section.

As for rolling back the guitar volume to get clean tones, well it has worked and still works fine for some of the greatest players in the world and many others. As I've said before, if you want to go from loud clean to low volume, compressed, distorted rhythm then the Vintage Modern or indeed any Plexi is not the ideal amp for you. Conversely, if you want a channel switcher to go from whispering clean to a roar with the same girth of a fully opened Plexi type amp from the rotation of your guitar volume, then good luck finding it.

There is no marketing agenda here either.

[ClubAndCountry]

I was typing a long answer to a different part of this, but you beat me to it...

I give up. Really! I just can't understand how deliberately removing control from an amp makes it (or by implication, the player) better - it just takes away options. If the Vintage Modern *doesn't* sound great clean(ish) as well as more heavily overdriven, why even make it possible to achieve those two sounds? And if you can, why not make it switchable? OK, you did. So why not make it *controllable* as well? It's so simple...

And I *do* have a channel-switcher that *does* go from whispering clean to a roar with the same girth of a fully opened Plexi type amp from the rotation of my guitar volume... sorry. All you do is set it so it sounds like a fully opened Plexi - on either channel. It just doesn't say Marshall on the front, and sometimes for some odd reason I wish it did.

[lukemc]

i think the key word there is when you said, set it so it sounds LIKE a fully opened plexi,

the single most important sound of the fully open plexi is obviously the power valves being driven hard and you cant have a loud clean setting at full guitar volume if the power section is being driven properly..

[ClubAndCountry]

No, you're still missing the point. I can set it like a fully-opened Plexi if I want to. I can *also* set it like a 2203 - with *more* gain and the *same* volume. And I can do both at the same time, with the same amp. With the Vintage Modern, you can set it like a Plexi in the Low mode, and you can set it like a 2203 in the the High mode - and it really is much more like a 2203, with the extra gain stage switched in... look at the schematics if you don't believe me. What you can't then do is bring the volume level of the High sound down to that of the Low sound. Turning down the guitar volume *doesn't* do that - it reduces the gain, which is not the same thing.

And yet, it could be achieved with the VM if only it had a another master for the High mode. And the VM *is* a channel switching amp, in exactly the same way as something like a Fender Hotrod is... it adds a complete extra gain stage into the signal path, using a foot-operated, relay switched circuit - something that ironically, my 'channel switcher' does not! The only difference is that the VM doesn't have separate controls for it. This is what's so frustrating to me - that a lot of people aren't seeming to see that it's *already* got most of what makes an amp a 'channel switcher' - footswitchable signal path and gain alteration - but just not that final control that allows you to *use* it more like one... or not, if you so choose, there would be nothing to stop you setting the controls the same if you wanted.

Perhaps if you don't know how to read a schematic you won't understand all this, in which case I'm sorry I'm going on about it... but I know SteveD does!

(Just to answer an earlier question - no, modding something like a DSL to sound like a vintage Marshall is not practical, the circuits are too different. What attracted me to the VM originally was that the circuit is fairly similar, at least in overall layout.)

I can now see that I'm not going to get anywhere trying to explain this though. So I will just go back to using my channel switcher with two different gain and volume settings, my guitar volume control and my hands... and I will leave it at that.

[gitarenkraak]

No, you're still missing the point. I can set it like a fully-opened Plexi if I want to. I can *also* set it like a 2203 - with *more* gain and the *same* volume. And I can do both at the same time, with the same amp. With the Vintage Modern, you can set it like a Plexi in the Low mode, and you can set it like a 2203 in the the High mode - and it really is much more like a 2203, with the extra gain stage switched in... look at the schematics if you don't believe me. What you can't then do is bring the volume level of the High sound down to that of the Low sound. Turning down the guitar volume *doesn't* do that - it reduces the gain, which is not the same thing.

And yet, it could be achieved with the VM if only it had a another master for the High mode. And the VM *is* a channel switching amp, in exactly the same way as something like a Fender Hotrod is... it adds a complete extra gain stage into the signal path, using a foot-operated, relay switched circuit - something that ironically, my 'channel switcher' does not! The only difference is that the VM doesn't have separate controls for it. This is what's so frustrating to me - that a lot of people aren't seeming to see that it's *already* got most of what makes an amp a 'channel switcher' - footswitchable signal path and gain alteration - but just not that final control that allows you to *use* it more like one... or not, if you so choose, there would be nothing to stop you setting the controls the same if you wanted.

Perhaps if you don't know how to read a schematic you won't understand all this, in which case I'm sorry I'm going on about it... but I know SteveD does!

(Just to answer an earlier question - no, modding something like a DSL to sound like a vintage Marshall is not practical, the circuits are too different. What attracted me to the VM originally was that the circuit is fairly similar, at least in overall layout.)

I can now see that I'm not going to get anywhere trying to explain this though. So I will just go back to using my channel switcher with two different gain and volume settings, my guitar volume control and my hands... and I will leave it at that.

you've made me curious, do you mind telling us what "channel switcher" you're reffering to?

[SteveD]

C&C, we're either talking at cross purposes here or your definition of a roaring Plexi is different to mine. Either way, if you have an amp that you're happy with then that's great news for you.

The Vintage Modern does sound great clean (never mind 'ish') and sounds great at all points in between and beyond. The point is that all of those sounds are related dynamically and there are still players who want that and are quite satisfied with that. I find it perfectly usable for all sounds from clean to lead on High Range alone for what I want. If I wanted something else I'd get something else.

If anyone wants to modify their amp I'm not going to argue, it's their prerogative, it makes no difference to me at all.

[Ghostrider]

For a player like myself I find the VM the perfect amp for for both clean and more gain tones. I don't want Fender clean and I sure don't want to tap dance switching channels while playing. The Vintage Modern is just one of many options Marshall offers, the design is something I can appreciate but I am shopping for another more bright amp to add since the VM does not give me that.

For what it's worth the original mod YT clips ruined the amps tone IMO. I guess love it or leave it or mod it but can we stop bitching about it.

[ClubAndCountry]

The channel switcher I'm referring to is the original 2-channel Mesa Dual Rectifier. (In my case, the Trem-o-verb combo version rather than the Solo head.)

If you don't believe that this amp is capable of Plexi tones - or anything apart from the scooped nu-metal sound it's so associated with - then you probably haven't played one, and certainly haven't fully explored what it can do. It's one of the most truly flexible amps ever made, and it does it all from *one* signal path - it's not even a 'channel switcher' in that sense, although obviously it does have two sets of controls. The differences between its various modes are all achieved by having different pots and fixed components switched into the same circuit layout and number of valve stages.

Of course, this will fall on deaf ears here (pun intended!) because it has the word Mesa - and worse, Rectifier - written on it, so it must of course only be capable of buzzy preamp distortion. Just try one... with an open mind and ears. You may be surprised. And remember to use the guitar and your hands as much as you would with any other amp, you *don't* have to forget about that just because it has more than half a dozen knobs :-).

For those interested, here is the schematic: http://www.schematicheaven.com/boogieam ... tifier.pdf. You may be surprised how simple it is - the flexibility is all in the combinations of switching LDRs to turn on which controls and extra resistors etc are in use. But look at just one channel and you'll see how Marshall-like it is.

Now, if you still think I'm completely crazy you are welcome :-).

[Green Manalishi]

I have had a Mesa single rec, and it can get plexi-ISH tones, similar but not quite. It can do nice clean Fender-ISH tones. Again, similar, not exact. It did Fender better than Marshall, it was missing that midrange something that Marshalls have, kind of a blander version of a Marshall.

I liked the amp a lot, I still don't know why I sold it, but the VM, for me, is a far better amp.

SteveD, I guess if there was no ability to change LDR and HDR, if it had only one dynamic range, then a lot of this silly argument would never have come up.

VM=single channel amp, many tone variations within that single channel, all with THE PLAYER in control.

I love this amp, btw. In the past few years, I have gone thru many amps, but have only kept one, the VM.

-- Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:08 pm --

Just to be devil's advocate, so if the VM was designed so that the LDR did not have the MV, but the HDR would, then you could set your LDR volume with the detail and body, then use the MV on the HDR to set matching level.
But then it wouldn't work, becuase it would get loud very quickly on the LDR (it would be really to get overdrive, same problem with non-MV), and you may not be able to get the preamp controls high enough to get as much overdrive in the HDR.

Also, it wouldn't work because of the PPIMV? It would have to be a Pre-PI for the HDR for it to work?