Need advice using effects loop

[thebigt71]

Helllo everyone,

First off, I wanted to thank everyone on this forum. The posts have been very helpful to understand the VM 2466 head that I acquired in December 2009. It has become my primary amp for the band I currently play in.

I have never used an effects loop. I used a 1983 JCM 800 for the last 17 years and that amp does not have an effects loop. I ran all the pedals through the front of that amp, as I do now with the VM. Currently, I used a OD, delay, wah, tuner and EQ on in front of the amp.

My questions about the effects loop are:

1) Can I run all these pedals through the effects loop? And is so, will the tuner work? Or do I have to keep the tuner out in front?

2) Also, will the OD pedal work well in the effects loop. I can reading that OD pedals should be out in front of the amp.

3) Is it best to split the pedals and have some run through the effects loop and others out in front? I would prefer not to do this, since I really have a hard time plugging into pedals. I always forget what goes where and adding more cables is a recipe for disaster for me, and I'm a bit lazy (truth be told).

4) I use the delay pedal the most, and I really don't like the sound of it out in front of the amp. Didn't like it with the JCM 800 and don't like it with the VM. I have to keep the levels on the pedal very low and even then I get feedback and a "cluttered" sound when the gain is high up, like when I take a lead part. If I have the volume on the guitar reduced, the delay pedal sounds really good. Turn up the volume for leads, and its not so good.

Thank you for any advice and tips. They are very much appreciated.

BTW-I really do love this amp very much. It cuts through perfectly in the mix and on lead parts. Not a brutal and forceful as my 800, but easier to manage, as that amp was like riding a bull---have to be careful with volume!!!!!

[slowpokerhino]

You can run all your effects through the loop, but you will probably not like the results.
OD & Wah really should go in front for best performance. If you do not like the delay in front, you will probably prefer to put that in the loop. The tuner will be okay in either position. The EQ works in either position but acts differently depending on where in the signal you have it. Try both and see which you prefer.
So, if you really want to use the loop to get the most out of your pedals, you're probably going to have to split them up. Since you seem happy with all the pedals but the delay all in front, I'd just try the delay only in the loop. Try to keep it as simple as you can.

A little word of advise, do not power pedals used in the loop and in front of the amp with the same power supply. It will probably cause a ground loop and/or hum.

[thebigt71]

Thanks for the advice. Any other tips?

Thanks in advance.

[pedrozepelim]

Just as slowpokerhino said.

[Orbis_Mortis]

A little word of advise, do not power pedals used in the loop and in front of the amp with the same power supply. It will probably cause a ground loop and/or hum.

I haven't had a problem with this at all. I power all my pedals with a Visual Sounds 1 Spot. I have my delay in the loop and everything else in front. Thanks for the info though. That will be the first place I check if I have any noise issues.

[jab]

you'll find the delay in the loop really cleans up the delays, no more scratchy sounding repeats. As for the eq, when in front it's more like eq'ing your guitar's sound. In the loop, you're giving your amp a final eq and it's much more responsive and clean. Personal preference thing, but I like it in the loop. I'm like you though, lazy and don't like complicated configurations especially when faced with a fast setup.

I made a snake out of 3 guitar cords with plastic ties. Off of my fx board I marked each plug end with a Sharpie (send, return, amp), and the same on the other ends of the cords. Therefore for setup I know where everything goes and it's just like wrapping 1 cord.

[Doug_MVM]

you'll find the delay in the loop really cleans up the delays, no more scratchy sounding repeats. As for the eq, when in front it's more like eq'ing your guitar's sound. In the loop, you're giving your amp a final eq and it's much more responsive and clean. Personal preference thing, but I like it in the loop. I'm like you though, lazy and don't like complicated configurations especially when faced with a fast setup.

I made a snake out of 3 guitar cords with plastic ties. Off of my fx board I marked each plug end with a Sharpie (send, return, amp), and the same on the other ends of the cords. Therefore for setup I know where everything goes and it's just like wrapping 1 cord.

I would have to say the scratchy sounds (or repeats) with the delay in loop depends on how much gain you have in front of the delay (while it is in the loop). I have researched this issue extensively, and I don't like what I am finding out about the VM effects loop.

Apparently the trade off in the design (cool gain control with the GTR volume control) is that the effects loop can run rather hot (depending on if you are in HDR for example). This creates bad sounding delays in the loop. I am surprised more folks here have not recognized this effect. Maybe most are either not using delays, or placing the delay in front of the amp.

You can test this by running your delay in most any other loop. I have tested with my 800, 6100, and JVM. The delays all sound spacious and beautiful. (I have a Hardwire DL delay). Now leave the settings, and simply replace with the VM. You may need to adjust the delay level from amp to amp. I run in HDR. The delay is either being clipped, or the the inverter is clipping the delay trails. It sounds like crap.

This is my only bitch about the amp. I have not found a solution to this issue. I have tried a Rocktron Intellifex, and carefully watched the effect levels, and it is still there.

I am convinced the root problem is the hot loop, and the player using similar gain as a 800. By the way, my Detail and Body are only at 12:00, so I don't consider that over the top in terms of gain.

Sorry for the rant. I love you guys and all of your knowledge and passion, but this needs to be said. Maybe because the design is meant to replicate the feel of a non-effect loop amp (early Marshall), it is not expected to place any delays in the loop?

Thanks for reading, and I don't mean any disrespect here. I love the amp tone, and I am not getting rid of it.

Doug

[SteveD]

Have you tried it set to +4dB which has less gain on the return although the send will be hotter. It might work better for you, especially if you use a delay with an input level control. (Even better if there is an output level control also, which I believe the Intelifex should have).

[Doug_MVM]

Have you tried it set to +4dB which has less gain on the return although the send will be hotter. It might work better for you, especially if you use a delay with an input level control. (Even better if there is an output level control also, which I believe the Intelifex should have).

Hi Steve,

Thanks very much for the suggestions. I appreciate hearing this straight from the creator. I think that did help. I set the VM loop switch to send at +4 dB, and then adjusted the Intellifex input so it was not clipping. I then set the Intellifex output switch to -10dB as to not overdrive the FX return (inverter) on the VM. I then adjusted the Intellifex output control to provide the closest level possible to match what the VM level would be with the FX loop bypassed. It is tricky to get all the levels adjusted properly, but I think it is pretty close.

This does lead me to believe that most folks are overdriving the inverter tube somewhat if playing in HDR. It's not going to be a problem if the loop is unused, or if there are not time based effects being used in the loop. I think I was hearing the inverter distorting the delay repeats. Stomp box delays in the loop may be an issue, as most do not have input sensitivity adjustments. It all comes down to how much gain you have pumped into the loop from the preamp.

Thanks again for the help. Your comments and opinions are appreciated and respected.

Doug

[C0ldFart]

This does lead me to believe that most folks are overdriving the inverter tube...

Isn't the fx return clipping like a limiter before the it get's into tubes

[Doug_MVM]

This does lead me to believe that most folks are overdriving the inverter tube...

Isn't the fx return clipping like a limiter before the it get's into tubes

You may be correct. Running in HDR with the loop bypassed, I believe the signal is pretty hot that is feeding the inverter tube at the end of the preamp. There is no nastiness what so ever. With the loop engaged, I watched the input of my Intellifex, and I know it is not being overdriven. I can carefully control the output of the Intellifex which feeds back into the FX return (and the inverter tube). I place the Intellifex output to the -10dB position, and I can make the nasty delay trail distortion go away by controlling the Intellifex output volume.

The frustrating part is I cannot get the "clean delay" output level to match the level of the VM FX loop in bypass. I basically stood by the amp and flipped the FX bypass button on and off, to try to match the levels while I played the guitar. It's hard to explain. Obviously, I am trying to get the same gain with the delay engaged, that you would get with the loop bypassed. This experiment has led me to believe some components either in the effect return buffers, or the inverter tube circuit are easily overdriven.

My plan is to either ween myself off of delays in the loop, or run the VM as the "dry" amp in a stereo configuration.

Thanks again for reading.

Doug

[SteveD]

The Vintage Modern's loop circuit restores the return signal back to the same level as bypass mode. You should be able to verify this by having nothing plugged into the loop and toggling the 'Loop' button on and off. The limiting circuit only comes into play if someone feeds an excessive signal into the return that may cause damage to the FX return and/or poweramp.

[jab]

SteveD: one more fx loop question. You mentioned the best way to get a solo boost is to reduce the level on an eq/boost pedal for normal playing, and for solo's turn the stomp box off to restore the normal/louder signal.

With the way the VM fx loop works, is having an eq/boost in the loop essentially the same as having it in front of the amp? Will it behave much differently either in front or in the loop?

[SteveD]

Boosting in the front of the amp causes the first preamp valve to overdrive giving desirable distortion. Boosting in the loop will simply cause the protective diode limiting to kick in which is not really desirable.

[jab]

SteveD: looked through the forum for the answer but can't seem to find it. IF I use an eq pedal "on" with the level set lower than unity for rhythm, then turn the eq pedal "off" for solos, in your opinion would you put it in the fx loop or in front of the amp?