Bedroom volume options

[DSL100 Dude]

I gig with my C5's at LEAST once a week and most weeks get two or three gigs.

Just depends on what your trying to do I reckon.

[KevinOConnor]

Hi Guys

I don't give any relevance to "the intended" application of an amp when assessing what might be done to the circuit to make it more useful to a given player. Frankly, I don't believe most players give "intended application" any weight either.

The plexi was intended to be played loud and clean. Some guys do that and some overdrive it.

Even the Champ was intended to be played clean, since it was just a "tune up" amp, or a "beginner's" amp for quiet practicing. But... many blast them.

The same goes for the Class-5 and every other amp Marshall makes - and all the other manufacturers, too.

The 100W amps are intended for stage use but most guys use them in their bedroom. You see 10W amps intended for the Studio and at home used on stage.

One point that _is_ relevant (I thought) was the subject of the thread. Someone somewhere was interested in getting the Class-5's cranked sound at a lower volume. In that context, a master-volume is highly relevant, just as any form of attenuation becomes.

Because of the efficiency of musical instrument speakers - typically 100db for 1W input - and the human scale of SPL tolerance, any amp over 100mW benefits from an MV or other regulation of volume.

Have fun
Kevin O'Connor

[dale2]

I tend to avoid mods to a great extent myself but they are fine. Pedals work for me. DLS does the cranked thing, and surprisingly the Les Luis does nicely. Of course fuzz pedals as well.

I like to use attenuators as well. The Weber Load Dump actually works great for me. Weber has other options as well. I have a Load Dump and 2 Weber Mass attenuators.

There Z-matcher is a good option for hooking this up to any cab as well. I like it at 16 ohm with an 8 ohm speaker. Sounds better to me than speaker at 8 ohm alone.

http://www.tedweber.com/atten.htm

[SteveD]

The same goes for the Class-5 and every other amp Marshall makes...

Sorry Kevin but that is simply not true. The Class 5 was designed to exploit the ability to crank the preamp and power amp to get driven Plexi like sounds at more managable volume. Fitting a master volume will significantly reduce the power amp from the equation and the sound is not the same.

I'm not saying people shouldn't fit a MV if they want, that's their prerogative. As I've stated many times on this forum, I have no problem with anyone who wants to personalise our amps, as you know it's been happening for years anyway.

[Brad]

Fitting a master volume will significantly reduce the power amp from the equation and the sound is not the same.

That is very good to know, Steve. That definately discourages me from fitting a MV.
Then what about this mod?
http://marshallvintagemodern.com/viewto ... =31&t=6532
Would that change the sound?

[Stringjunkie]

Steve this amp is perfect don't change a thing! Except maybe a head version... I love this amp, the tones from my strat are exactly what I have been looking for. I'm not getting why some can't turn it down enough between all the knobs on their guitar and amp. If all else fails kill the volume on the amp and drive the hell out of it with a pedal. Guess I'm just lucky...Thanks for the sweet amp!

[SteveD]

Fitting a master volume will significantly reduce the power amp from the equation and the sound is not the same.

That is very good to know, Steve. That definately discourages me from fitting a MV.
Then what about this mod?
http://marshallvintagemodern.com/viewto ... =31&t=6532
Would that change the sound?

That mod makes the 'bedroom trick' accessable by the switching action of the headphone socket instead of the speaker lead. Perfectly acceptable.

[KevinOConnor]

Hi Guys

It would be handy if when you quote someone you attribute the quote to the correct person.

I did not say "Fitting a master volume will significantly reduce the power amp from the equation and the sound is not the same"... but it is true to an extent.

An ignored truth about tube amps is that every tube in the circuit contributes to the tone at ALL signal levels. You are not losing the sonic signature of the output tube by not compressing or clipping it. You are just not using that range of its sound but you can access it with Power Scaling, or by using a post-amp attenuator.

A MV allows the bulk of distortion to be produced in the preamp. You really must allow for this to be "okay" since the 800 and all other MV amps are "intended" to be operated that way by Marshall themselves - so it _must_ be "good"? The 800 was "intended" to allow the cranked plexi sound with control over loudness. Hopefully this eliminates a lot of OT servicing, burnt speakers and deafened musicans and audiences.

The fact is, with the extra gain stages the Class-5 has, you don't really get to enjoy what they can do the way the amp is built - that is without a MV. Fitting an MV provides much more control over what the circuit is capable of, and lets the player access new ways to operate the amp. obviously, someone wiling to fit the MV will (should?) also do the other half of the mod and voice the amp so the MV sounds good.

Some people have the opinion that the C5 is "intended" to be run flat out as a non-MV amp, and that is purely their own opinion. The amp can also be used completely clean. Is the guy using it clean breaking some rule? Is he committing a crime against Marshall?

Again, the name of the thread suggests that there is a body of players who think the C5 is too loud. Shouting them down does not make you look very intelligent or considerate. At least those guys bought a Marshall - so be happy about that. They didn't consume the limited supply of 100W+ amps, leaving more for the Loudrocks - so be happy about that, too.

Everyone has an opinion and all opinions are correct. The loudest voice is not usually the correct one.

Have fun
Kevin O'Connor

[DSL100 Dude]

Some people have the opinion that the C5 is "intended" to be run flat out as a non-MV amp, and that is purely their own opinion. The amp can also be used completely clean. Is the guy using it clean breaking some rule? Is he committing a crime against Marshall?

Uh...


HECK YES!!!!!!

Marshall are made to be dimed full out! Everything else is just posing! :rocker :party

I of course understand where your coming from but remember also that it was Jim Marshall that made Pete his insane 8x12 cabs and 100 watt heads to begin with. Marshall, unlike ANY other amp company just has a certain mojo when it comes to cranked and full throttle amps.

[SteveD]

Hi Guys

It would be handy if when you quote someone you attribute the quote to the correct person.

I did not say "Fitting a master volume will significantly reduce the power amp from the equation and the sound is not the same"... but it is true to an extent.

SD: I think something went wrong with Brad's reply to that post Kevin. In my original post, your quote was in the 'KevinOConnor wrote' box and the subsequent text (as 'quoted' above) was my reply to that quote.

An ignored truth about tube amps is that every tube in the circuit contributes to the tone at ALL signal levels. You are not losing the sonic signature of the output tube by not compressing or clipping it. You are just not using that range of its sound but you can access it with Power Scaling, or by using a post-amp attenuator.

A MV allows the bulk of distortion to be produced in the preamp. You really must allow for this to be "okay" since the 800 and all other MV amps are "intended" to be operated that way by Marshall themselves - so it _must_ be "good"? The 800 was "intended" to allow the cranked plexi sound with control over loudness. Hopefully this eliminates a lot of OT servicing, burnt speakers and deafened musicans and audiences.

SD: Indeed you are correct about the philosophy behind the Master Volume but there are many of our customers who wanted a low power amp that operates in the same way as a Plexi despite the limitations of the topology. These days, Master Volumes on our high power amps are a must have, but arguably not so critical on a 5 watt. Is there an amp that is all things to all men?

Marketing feedback indicates that one man's meat is another man's poison, whether by indoctrination over the years or good sense, (and thats a debate I know you would probably be passionate about!)

The fact is, with the extra gain stages the Class-5 has, you don't really get to enjoy what they can do the way the amp is built - that is without a MV. Fitting an MV provides much more control over what the circuit is capable of, and lets the player access new ways to operate the amp. obviously, someone wiling to fit the MV will (should?) also do the other half of the mod and voice the amp so the MV sounds good.

SD: Yes a Master Volume extends the pallette somewhat, but not to everyone's taste and the request was for a 'baby Pexi'. It certainly hasn't done any harm to sales.

Some people have the opinion that the C5 is "intended" to be run flat out as a non-MV amp, and that is purely their own opinion. The amp can also be used completely clean. Is the guy using it clean breaking some rule? Is he committing a crime against Marshall?

SD: C'mon Kevin, that's a loaded question! Players can use our amps any way they please but people like to crank amps! Even when cranked it cleans up well from the guitar volume, especially with a Strat.

Again, the name of the thread suggests that there is a body of players who think the C5 is too loud. Shouting them down does not make you look very intelligent or considerate. At least those guys bought a Marshall - so be happy about that. They didn't consume the limited supply of 100W+ amps, leaving more for the Loudrocks - so be happy about that, too.

Everyone has an opinion and all opinions are correct. The loudest voice is not usually the correct one.

SD: Nobody shouts anyone down for anything on this forum unless they get out of line as per the rules of most public forums.

I can accept and respect your opinion here Kevin but it is just that, an opinion, like everyone here and it creates interesting debate and communal spirit. I don't mind if people slate the Vintage Modern, Class 5 , JMD whatever, it's going to happen and such is life. However, I detect a distinct antagonism toward Marshall for whatever reasons and I would hope you don't let it get personal with me because I happen to be one of their design engineers.

Have fun
Kevin O'Connor

[DSL100 Dude]

[KevinOConnor]

Hi Guys

As an amp designer myself, I have come to realize that the "intended" use I might have envisioned will only be one way the amp gets used. So, in that regard, I don't even bother with such intentions any more. In this context, an "intended use" is itself an opinion.

To the same end, how you see each model and brand of amp being used by real players tells you that they do not heed "intended use" suggestions either. The master-volume amp configuration was intended to allow the power section to be operated cleanly and loudness to be controlled while retaining the "cranked" sound. I can count on one hand the number of players I encountered who used their MV amps that way.

I have no problems with Marshall as a company or a product. I _do_ have problems when I see people asking innocent questions being bullied by intolerants. The guys who think "the C5 sounds best cranked" and "the louder the better" should be on another thread than this one extolling that way of using the amp. It is their right to have that opinion. It is also the right of the guy who thinks the C5 is too loud to seek a solution.

How about being thankful the guy bought a C5 instead of someone else's 5W amp? The head-phone jack solution on the other thread works for a lot of people and is simple to implement - best of all, it costs nothing to try and may make the amp a "keeper".

There are always options in life. Every opinion is correct for the opinion holder. Everyone should allow everyone else to have and enjoy their opinions. Anyone can change their opinion at any time and still be correct.

Have fun
Kevin O'Connor

[surfnorthwest]

Kevin, this is one of the smaller discussion boards that focus on Marshall Products. The board is not funded or affiliated with Marshall in any way, it is mine. Because of this I allow all opinions and rarely deal with any hostilities, I will keep it that way.

Steve is kind enough to come in and help keep the facts straight with amps he and his colleagues have designed. Your technical knowledge and opinions are also welcomed and appreciated here as long as there is no agenda.

[Beck-Ola]

The master-volume amp configuration was intended to allow the power section to be operated cleanly and loudness to be controlled while retaining the "cranked" sound. I can count on one hand the number of players I encountered who used their MV amps that way.

On one hand? Are you kidding? That's how I use a MV when I want a cranked sound without extreme volume, which is most of the time, especially on the JCM800. Maybe I misunderstood what you're saying. The only other way I use the MV is to set it high and the Preamp Gain low when going for a cleaner sound at higher volume. Is that what you mean?

[CBoothe]

For what it's worth I did the mod hardwiring the headphone switch to the other switch. It was very easy-I've never modded an amp before but I've soldered guitar pickups.

It took longer to get the jack out of the amp than it did to do the soldering.

Very easy and very successful- I REALLY like it.